"he fights like a girl"- To feel despair at engrained and pervasive sexism

[Evelight]

yesterday evening, I took DS (10) to his Taek won do class. I was reading a book. The Master's son, same age as mine, had broken his collarbone and couldn't practice, he came and sat next to me, and bored out of his mind, started chatting, what are you reading, what is it etc, a nice kid. At some point I asked him if he knew my DS and enjoyed fighting with him (sthg like that anyway). He answered yes, and added jokily "he sometimes fights like a girl."

I was surprised, because at that particular school, there are several female instructors, one of them a former national gold medallist who is amazing. They literally kick ass. I should have had the presence of mind to retort "well if he fights anything like Miss XX, it would be awesome!"- but of course I only thought of that later, as one does, and only smiled uncomfortably in the moment.

the point being- I witness kids (my kids included) come up all the time with all sorts of these (what I would have hoped are but obviously not) outdated pronouncements still rife with casual sexism (girls suck! boys are gross!) despite the best efforts of PC school programming and education. It's not getting better as they grow older either. Sometimes I argue, sometimes I don't. But really, when are we going to move on from this crap?

Felicia
No one would say that. It would be "welcome to our panel of brokers"
Not "welcome to our panel if brokers plus our lady broker"
Where are you getting all this from?
. You say it doesnt happen to men. It doesnt happen to women where I work either. Would be interested to know what industry you work in? Or what era you are living in?

Katenka
Trust me, I dont know where you work but im baffled by all of this.
Example...i actually made constant coffee for us at work today. Yep me making it for myself and all the blokes. I put that down to them being lazy bastards rather than me maybe thinking they thought it was my job as a woman to wait on them. I think people over think the 'sexism' debate. Another example today. We were discussing gyms. New woman says she goes to a ladies only gym. Ok fine. Then as a joke one if the guys piped up that him and his mates were going to picket outside the gym because its sexist (this all started based on me showing them this thread). Can you see how ridiculous it all is? And how over the top it can all become?

You choosing to make the coffee isn't sexism. Neither is them not being bothered to make it. Sometimes women can't be arsed either.

It's sexism if you are expected to make coffee because you are female. It's not that difficult.

I used to make coffee for my team. Purely because I constantly drink coffee and was making myself one. No one said women shouldn't make coffee.

Ladies gyms have nothing to do with 'fight like a girl' .

Some women like ladies gyms because some men make women feel inform table in mixed gyms.

I couldn't give a shit, tbh I train with men. I quite happily change my kit in front of them as we are a team. No one bats an eyelid. Because I am a person first. Not a woman.

But if some women want a private gym away from the creepy men (that do exist) it's up to them. If men want their own men's gyms, let them have them. Let a man set up a male only gym. I can't see anyone objecting.

Also a ladies gym is a gym for women only. The term 'ladies gym' isn't used as a put down. So it not relevant

Katenka
The mother up thread who told her daughter off for saying "lady dentist"
I think that is incredibly sad for that little girl.

No it's not.

It's not something I may have brought up. However if a child feels the need to point out that a dentist is female, it suggests that unusual.

A dentist is a dentist wether male or female. There is no need to clarify the sex or gender of that person doing the job. The sex or gender has no baring on their ability to do the job.

You said no one would describe you as a lady broker. Why not?

Katenka
Brokers are called brokers whether man or woman!
Re the dentist issue. We are talking about a child here. Is it a big thing she said lady dentist. Or even man dentist?

Flat- thanks for describing those little scenes from your workplace. I can really understand better now why you talk about "dangerous feminists" and why the discussion of casual, everyday sexism is making you so angry and uncomfortable.

Do you know there are women now in Saudi Arabia who have a movement "Not without my Chaperone"? they are advocating against proposed changes that SA women should be able to go out without male chaperones.

And you do realize there were women high class, privileged women who were active against universal suffrage and women's rights to vote.

You will dismiss my examples as being far away from you in time and space (in reality, not so far away as you would like to imagine). But I have to admit your insistence that every day sexism is ridiculous and outdated remind me of those women.

Women who are so deeply invested and embedded in the status quo, and preserving it, that they will react to anything which threatens to change it.

Like you. I have met women like you, in the workplace, who find it easier to go along with the "old boys' club mentality" - to reassure their male colleagues that oh no, they are not a dangerous feminist at all! They think feminism is ridiculous and sexism is a figment of the imagination! how silly all those other women are being, with their annoyance at getting coffee for every one, and their disdain for part planning! No- let me jump and get coffee for you! Please- this is not sexism at all, this is no big deal, I love getting coffee for everyone, why make a fuss! Of course- it's your workplace, where you spend the majority of your hours, your most productive moments, why rock the boat? Why make everyone feel uncomfortable by getting your own coffee and let anybody who wants sodding coffee get their own? Why make a bad vibe, when you can blend in with the herd mentality of har har crazy mad feminists - lets laugh at them and show the blokes (dudes?) you are a good woman? What fun!

Maybe you'll break the glass ceiling one of these days (god knows you deserve it with all those cups of coffees you're handing out to the "lazy bastards") and become a big lady boss yourself- then you can tell all those other sodding women who keep complain about mat leave and sexual harassment and being passed over for promotion where they can shove their gross breast-feeding pumps.

Katenka
Another thing. No one would describe me as a lady broker because they can see im a woman. Same as no one would say man broker. No point in stating the obvious.

Evelight
Im talking UK. Not the middle east where women are treated like shit.

Evelight
I drink coffee all day long. For me to make a few more cups for those on our team is no big deal. Would you feel the same about making coffee if the whole team were women? Would that change the situation for you?

Brokers are called brokers whether man or woman!

and a dentist is a dentist.

A parent has the right to choose to how to bring their child up. Correcting them or discussing why they felt the need to specify 'lady' when referring to a dentist is not different to questioning a child who said 'black dentist'. There is no need to communicate a person race or gender/sex in the majority of cases and to so so is wrong. If a parent wants to deal with it in an age appropriate manner...that's great.

No one would describe me as a lady broker because they can see im a woman. Same as no one would say man broker. No point in stating the obvious.

You are contradicting yourself again. Is it because a broker is a broker or because people can tell you are a woman?

Sorry, haven't read the entire thread but have to say that I'm amazed any child nowadays would think it necessary to remark on a dentist being a 'lady'. It surely can't be anything unusual as rates of entry to schools of medicine and medical professions are 50/50.
The only circs. when I can imagine it being said would be if the child was distinguishing between two dentists in the same practice of different genders (even then, I personally dislike the term 'lady' as opposed to 'woman' but that's another issue).

If my DGS said that, I'd certainly gently ask him why.

Those men apparently drink coffee all day long as well. But don't make it for the whole team then?

Should have said the child was distinguishing between two dentists whose names they didn't know.

Flat- thanks for describing those little scenes from your workplace. I can really understand better now why you talk about "dangerous feminists" and why the discussion of casual, everyday sexism is making you so angry and uncomfortable.

Do you know there are women now in Saudi Arabia who have a movement "Not without my Chaperone"? they are advocating against proposed changes that SA women should be able to go out without male chaperones.

And you do realize there were women high class, privileged women who were active against universal suffrage and women's rights to vote.

You will dismiss my examples as being far away from you in time and space (in reality, not so far away as you would like to imagine). But I have to admit your insistence that every day sexism is ridiculous and outdated remind me of those women.

Women who are so deeply invested and embedded in the status quo, and preserving it, that they will react to anything which threatens to change it.

Like you. I have met women like you, in the workplace, who find it easier to go along with the "old boys' club mentality" - to reassure their male colleagues that oh no, they are not a dangerous feminist at all! They think feminism is ridiculous and sexism is a figment of the imagination! how silly all those other women are being, with their annoyance at getting coffee for every one, and their disdain for part planning! No- let me jump and get coffee for you! Please- this is not sexism at all, this is no big deal, I love getting coffee for everyone, why make a fuss! Of course- it's your workplace, where you spend the majority of your hours, your most productive moments, why rock the boat? Why make everyone feel uncomfortable by getting your own coffee and let anybody who wants sodding coffee get their own? Why make a bad vibe, when you can blend in with the herd mentality of har har crazy mad feminists - lets laugh at them and show the blokes (dudes?) you are a good woman? What fun!

Maybe you'll break the glass ceiling one of these days (god knows you deserve it with all those cups of coffees you're handing out to the "lazy bastards") and become a big lady boss yourself- then you can tell all those other sodding women who keep complain about mat leave and sexual harassment and being passed over for promotion where they can shove their gross breast-feeding pumps.

Jesus...all this - yet you said nothing when it counted.

Flat your comment about maternity leave succinctly demonstrates the glass ceiling. I could explain why but frankly I'd be wasting my breath.

Thankfully it seems that you are in the minority and so perhaps the tide has finally started to turn

I have just mentioned this thread to DH and he's has said he hates the phrase 'man up' for all the reasons we have discussed.

Sexism swings both ways and there is a very good reason why the suicide rate in men under 30 is the highest for any group.

We do both sexes a disservice perpetuating this shit

I think, Flat, and this may just blow your tiny mind, that without pesky feminists fighting all the silly little things that don't really matter (to you) you wouldn't actually be working as a broker in a make dominated workplace.

Without feminism you'd still be expected to be at home bringing up the kids and making sure your man has his dinner ready when he got home.

Silly feminism and its ensuring education for girls, the vote for women, the right to equal wages, the removal of marital rape, etc, etc.

Who needs it, eh?

Lilac
Of course there is nothing wrong with equality. But what i am struggling to understand and what has really got my goat on this thread is the child saying "lady dentist" and the way it is being portrayed as being something so terrible. Does it really matter that the sex of the dentist was pointed out. Is describing someone as a 'lady' sexist!

I have asked a friend on the phone about this tonight. She is a haematologist at a well known London hospital. When I asked her opinion there was a longish pause. I said "well say something then". I expected a MN answer.
Well I was wrong.

Her reply was "oh come on, REALLY? Its ridiculous that some parents are teaching their children to think this is wrong. No they are wrong! To instill into their children that describing a person by their sex is something that could be construed as sexist. Utter rubbish"
She then proceeded to say "who the hell are these people"
I had to explain MN and how it works etc. She then proceeded to say she thought they were mums at the school

I think lots of things have got your goat Flat, not just Lady dentist.

Why does the equality of women bother you so much...

Of course that conversation happened. As did the one with your male colleagues.

Funny how you seem to be the only one on this thread who lives in this little bubble of non-sexism.

If things are really getting your goat that badly why don't you go and talk about something that doesn't wind you up and stop trying to de-rail a perfectly valid conversation that the rest of us are trying to have?

Lilac
Because you do not agree with what i am saying does not mean it was never said. Do you go to work and chit chat in your work place about various topics other than work. We certainly do in our office. We dont sit in silence working all day. We converse about anything and everything.
Do you speak to friends? I certainly do as most if the population do. If you find having discussions with others on a subject odd or unusual then quite frankly I think you must be living in a strange bubble yourself.

Of course we talk about other things. What I don't do is post on here then bring it up at work and phone my friends to get their opinions just to bring back here.

And if I did do either of those things you'd probably find their opinions matched mine, just as the people you know match yours.

Because I'm not friends with sexist asshats.