At the pool - other adult behavior

[CousCousDefinitely]

I was at our local leisure centre today. It's a private hotel one, if it makes a difference, so it's users would be a combination of members, hotel guests and you can also pay for a day pass. I'm a member.
It was busy as it is normally on a Saturday afternoon. There were two guys I hadn't seen before in the lanes section (where you can do serious swimming, up one side and down the other). I wanted to do 50 or so lengths but it was tricky as it was me and them in the section and they were doing handstands, diving in (under the no diving sign) and generally getting in the way. I get this with children sometimes but not usually adults in their 30s or 40s.
Im laid back so I just sort of went around them as best I could. They were swimming under me and making me nervous. So after about 20 lengths I gave up.
I went into the steamroom and they arrived in about 10 minutes after and stared at me up and down in a pervy uncomfortable way.
So they it clicked that the pool annoyance was probably on purpose.
I left and was pissed off that it made me felt so uncomfortable.
I was pissed off that I couldn't do anything to stop them staring, that they'd intrrupted my swim and that I couldnt complain to the lifeguard while I was there as it would have been awkward, or as I was leaving as I didn't want to appear racist. The two guys were speaking Arabic to each other which is pretty uncommon in my town.
My dh went to the pool after I got home, for his turn at a bit of child free peace and I described them to him. He came back and said they were in the hot tub (this was 2 hours after me) so they'd probably got a day pass and stayed to piss off more people.
Was I unreasonable to just leave and say nothing and if so, what should I have done or said? Either to them or to the lifeguard. I feel like such a chicken.

I think this kind of behaviour from men is hard to report. I have seen the disbelieving responses on here when a women posts upset because a man was staring at her and making her feel uncomfortable.

I think MistressMia may well have quite a bit more experience of this than you zzzzz. And, y'know, all the women who actually live in the country full time and actually answered the question. And have slightly less of an agenda than you. But at the end of the day zzzzz, no matter how many women say it's happened, you won't believe it. Because you work from ideology and not evidence.

I've RTFT (skimmed over the figures parts, it is 2.30 after all)

My first thought, was the OP is maybe a bit sheltered, a bit 'posh' maybe, and maybe the only thing she knows about other ethnicities, asylum seekers etc, is what's plastered on the front of the daily mail?

I'm from a place near Rotherham, where I was an ethnic minority. As I grew up, my Pakistani Muslim male friends all had white girlfriends. The general consensus was that they were good for sex but never to take home to mum.

So I'm not surprised that as, I'm presuming, a white woman, the OP is afraid. Especially since the source of that fear, are some new, intimidating men, who happen to look alot like those migrants that everyone is warning us about.
I really don't see any malice on her OP just cultural ignorance

"It's not the cultural norm in many Asian, Arabic or Muslim countries either - broadly Muslim countries have elected more female heads of state than the west for starters."

!?!?! There are many female heads of state in countries like Bangladesh because of corrupt political situations and nepotism which result in the widows of powerful men being put in place as head of state.

Basically, if you've grown up in a society or culture where free-mixing in places like swimming pools or parks on a hot day where women are obviously wearing skimpy clothing (just like the men) either a bathing suit or some shorts and a vest top or something, you might get a bit over excited about stalking said women around the pool/beach/park to get a look at actual flesh because you never usually see it. It's a novelty, like seeing a wild animal close up in a zoo, but with the added frisson of sexual excitement. Apart from prostitutes or internet porn or lingerie ads in the pages of western magazines if they can get their hands on one that is uncensored, they don't see female flesh/skin/hair.

We in the west who see no need to totally cover our limbs or our heads for modesty (any more than men do) are viewed by many men from these cultures as objects to be leered at or grabbed at, or paid for. Because they simply don't understand or accept that we would otherwise show them our skin unless we probably prepared to have sex with them.

That is the problem and it's a problem we are going to have to become increasingly used to over the next few years.

Funny how some get on there high horse and quite defensive. If she'd mentioned it was two Scotsmen speaking Glaswegian not an eyelid would have been batted.

There's a lot of angst in this post. Ok, so say this sort of thing does happen and becomes more of a problem with asylum seekers (we are talking about the recent European influx, who have been mainly Muslim, yes and we can speak the actual truth it's not illegal). And say some of these men folk did act inappropriately or suggestive, or in ways that most people in this culture have been taught not to (not saying that everyone doesn't but culture is taught/learned) but say they behave in a way that's not culturally acceptable here. If that happens more and more then, yikes! If it starts to happen here then I can see people being in massive denial and frightened of upsetting fellow Muslims and not speaking up. Sorry, but grow up people This has been happening in Europe. So wake up and stop being so blimin' PC. If we can't speak out about what actually happens here (say assault, intimidation or other) as it has and is happening in other European countries then I think this country has a BIG problem and political correctness and positive discrimination is just a start. Stop it!

The race issue is irrelevant and I don't understand why it was even brought up by the op. The behaviour of the men is unacceptable and should have been reported.

In this case the race issue is a non-point and the men should have been told to behave in an appropriate fashion or leave.

Otoh, to ignore the whole issue of some men's disrespect for women is going to come home to roost. Some years ago I was in Italy in a place I had been many times before. On this occasion there were a lot of North African men in groups. Suddenly this man grabbed my (long) hair and started stroking it. I don't remember feeling scared, just angry that he'd laid a hand on me and I pushed him off.

I feel angry that we may be setting ourselves up for a situation where not we, but our daughters and granddaughters will have to cover themselves up to avoid harassment or worse. Where it will be their fault if they attract unwarranted attention.

Mistress Mia could be a 40 stone trucker from Kent called Dave to be honest

as could I

It doesn't mean she gets to shut down any discussion simply by claiming to have more experience than others - she could have - she could be lying - it's the internet!

The MN Mafia are out in force aren't they. Maybe the OP made an assumption that the guys were Muslim/speaking Arabic. However, it doesn't detract from the issue that they were being complete twats. However, as usual, on MN, as soon as anyone brings up the fact that someone is foreign then they are automatically in the wrong.

Hope you are OK OP and I would have not been happy in your shoes. It was probably all the more intimidating if you had no idea at all what they were saying.

No. You have an agenda. I know because I've read it, you have posted it. I've read the same agenda many times before and also people apologising for the consequences of that same agenda when it's meant that crimes have been covered up, minimised, ignored in places like Rotherham and Cologne. It's an agenda which has allowed crimes to continue unchecked for decades. Go and have a look at the Jay, Casey and parliamentary CSE report to see what your agenda leads to.

And ghosty, for you to accuse other people of 'shutting down debate' is a joke frankly.

Bill are you stalking me or just a fan!

yes Rotherham where 68% of those identified by the police where white British - or Cologne where plenty of white German men joined in

rape, sexual violence and abuse is a massive problem - it is not just a 'foreign' one though

ghosty Nowhere in my post above do I talk about my personal experience.

You introduced Reza, mine was a counterpoint refuting him using Islamic literature.

On other threads such as this one www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2561830-World-Hijab-Day?msgid=59094458 I mentioned my background ONLY as the poster who I was addressing had mentioned hers and it was a direct challenge to her from the perspective of our shared Pakistani heritage.

The conversation, as always, shut down.

In that instance as on many other threads I've been on, because well, simply when faced with specifics it begins impossible to defend the indefensible.

Knowing they can't get away with shouting racism, Islamophobia, 'out of context', 'you have to be muslim to understand the text properly' etc etc they instead melt away.

You'll still get them trying a different tactic though. No doubt some will be on soon to tell me how vile I am.

Sorry BillSykesDog but that's not correct. There are at least two white women on trial for the Rotherham CSE and just because the arrest of white men isn't publicised, doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

Not derailing the thread here, honest!!!!

This www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-35524340 is the disgusting sort of behaviour from Muslim men that needs to be fought against. It's all from the same mindset - white, female and not covered from head to toe = fair game for sexual assault and rape.

I find some of the attitudes and minimising thought processes on this thread quite shocking. Why is it so hard to understand that many many Muslim men (whether recent immigrants or not) do not respect women?

The white women are on trial for pimping and procurement, not for abuse. All of the abusers identified in the Jay report were Pakistani or Afghani.

And the men they pimped for are all all Asian.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-32413508 also the kind of thing white men do

it's the myth of the black rapist all over again - that was used as an excuse for oppression for years

Yes that is vile ghosty however your whataboutery doesn't detract from the emerging pattern of Muslim men targeting vulnerable white teenagers because they are seen as worthless and there to be sexually exploited. Strange how these men don't target girls from their own community. Perhaps the solution is that everyone should keep their daughters confined to home?