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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

At the pool - other adult behavior

416 replies

CousCousDefinitely · 06/02/2016 21:00

I was at our local leisure centre today. It's a private hotel one, if it makes a difference, so it's users would be a combination of members, hotel guests and you can also pay for a day pass. I'm a member.
It was busy as it is normally on a Saturday afternoon. There were two guys I hadn't seen before in the lanes section (where you can do serious swimming, up one side and down the other). I wanted to do 50 or so lengths but it was tricky as it was me and them in the section and they were doing handstands, diving in (under the no diving sign) and generally getting in the way. I get this with children sometimes but not usually adults in their 30s or 40s.
Im laid back so I just sort of went around them as best I could. They were swimming under me and making me nervous. So after about 20 lengths I gave up.
I went into the steamroom and they arrived in about 10 minutes after and stared at me up and down in a pervy uncomfortable way.
So they it clicked that the pool annoyance was probably on purpose.
I left and was pissed off that it made me felt so uncomfortable.
I was pissed off that I couldn't do anything to stop them staring, that they'd intrrupted my swim and that I couldnt complain to the lifeguard while I was there as it would have been awkward, or as I was leaving as I didn't want to appear racist. The two guys were speaking Arabic to each other which is pretty uncommon in my town.
My dh went to the pool after I got home, for his turn at a bit of child free peace and I described them to him. He came back and said they were in the hot tub (this was 2 hours after me) so they'd probably got a day pass and stayed to piss off more people.
Was I unreasonable to just leave and say nothing and if so, what should I have done or said? Either to them or to the lifeguard. I feel like such a chicken.

OP posts:
ghostyslovesheep · 08/02/2016 19:43

they do target girls from their own community - like all child abusers they target vulnerable children - from many communities - male and female

it's not just a Muslim/Asian issue though - the abusers I know of come from different communities broadly representative of the area

it's dangerous to ignore the existence of wide spread abuse across society and focus on one group (one very small group) alone - each case is different

Young vulnerable people are a valuable commodity - drugs can be sold once - people can be sold repeatedly

it's organised and it's not just a problem with Asian men

VintageTrouble · 08/02/2016 19:44

On the contrary Anthony they do but that is often not reported to the police as it will reduce the "value" of the girls that have been attacked.

It is clear that some men abuse some women. It is clear that some of those men are white and some are not. It is clear that some immigrants will be abusers. It does not follow that in a religion of over 1 billion people all the men will abuse women.

You cannot make sweeping statements like

This ...disgusting sort of behaviour from Muslim men that needs to be fought against. It's all from the same mindset - white, female and not covered from head to toe = fair game for sexual assault and rape.

Without sounding racist.

None of the Muslim men I know think women should be sexually assaulted, sadly I do know white men who think it's acceptable.

Kummerspeck · 08/02/2016 19:47

If we are not able to discuss these issues without being decried as racists then it is only a matter of time until women's rights and freedoms as we know them, will be seriously impinged upon.

I find it shocking that women who claim to be feminists will deny the existence of a lack of respect for women from men from some ethnic groups on the grounds that some white men do it too. I do not care what race, religion or creed a sexual offender is from, I want all of them stopped and to refuse to be prepared to stand against this is madness

BillSykesDog · 08/02/2016 19:48

Incidentally ghosty, since they have deleted my post above I will respond to your claims again. All of the abusers identified in the Jay and Casey reports were Asian, mainly Pakistani but also a few Afghani.

The report (with the 68%) you referred to has since been withdrawn. It was produced from figures from departments that Louise Casey described as 'in denial' and not dealing with the abuse. It was not based on crime reports, or even victim interviewers, but instead public health officials perception of who 'might' have, in their opinion have been involved in suspected CSE reports.

You've also missed some important figures from your post. Rotherham is 90% white, 3% Kashmiri. A positive spin was put on the (discredited) report, 68% white abusers 24% Kashmiri abusers. But actually, compared to population, those figures represent a 0.3 underrepresentation for the white population, but an over representation of the Kashmiri population by a factor of 8.

ghostyslovesheep · 08/02/2016 19:57

the report into Rotherham found 68% of known abusers where white - it's easy to find if you google

If you stop focusing on race for a moment and focus on the wider issue of OUR society and it's treatment of women and children - maybe 'we' don't exactly lead by example

It's not a only a race issue it's not just a Muslim/Asian issue and pretending it is it scary

I worked for Rape Crisis for years - I know work for Social Services - I understand the issues - it's not an Asian problem it's a world wide problem

zzzzz · 08/02/2016 19:57

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AnthonyBlanche · 08/02/2016 20:01

vintage as Islam is not a race but a religion there is nothing racist in anything I have said.

I have no issues with anyone's race. What I do take issue with is a RELIGION which puts the rights of men far above the rights of women and which considers anyone not of that faith to be inferior.

I am now done with this thread as it is apparent that no discussion can be had. Any dissent from the ghosty and vintage view is to be silenced by cries of "racist!"

ghostyslovesheep · 08/02/2016 20:03

Kummer lack of respect for women is a massive issue - it's not just an issue for one community though

Not one person has said the OP did anything wrong or that she deserved to swim without being harassed - no one

I have been yelled at from building sites, wolf whistled, raped, battered, mugged, sexually assaulted and followed - none of the people who did those things where Asian - 90% where white

This society doesn't respect women - 2 women a week die at the hands of their abusive partner, a tiny proportion of rapes get reported, an even tinier percentage get to court, we still blame women for mens action - US - Britain 2016 - please don't think it's a new or imported thing!

zzzzz · 08/02/2016 20:04

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ghostyslovesheep · 08/02/2016 20:06

what religion is that? Christianity?

all world religion are pretty shit when it comes to women - still Muslim countries have oddly elected more female heads of state ...

SOME Muslim countries are massively oppressive - I'm looking at you (our best mate in the Middle East) Saudi - that is their government and it's oppressive nature - but 'Islam' is no more anti women than good old St Paul really!

ghostyslovesheep · 08/02/2016 20:07

and yes I'm not really in a position to 'silence' people on MN - it's a public website

BillSykesDog · 08/02/2016 20:07

Some quotes from witnesses to the parliamentary select committee report on CSE and localised grooming:

Judge in the Derby CSE case:
He also noted that the victims in the case had been treated as though they were worthless and beyond respect. He suggested that “one of the factors leading to that was the fact that they were not part of [the defendants’] community or religion”.

Andrew Norfolk a reporter who was instrumental in exposing the crime:
If you come from a rural Mirpuri, Kashmiri community, where, whatever state law says, village tradition and sharia says that puberty is the green light for marriage—as it does—and if you recognise that most girls in this country are hitting puberty at 11 or 12, perhaps one begins to understand why it is not just lone offenders. There has to be something, given that so often this is a normalised group activity—not among a major criminal gang, but among friends, work colleagues and relatives—that does not have the same sense of shame attached to it as would be the case for your typical White offender, who works alone because if he told too many people, somebody would report him.

Anne Cryer, former MP for Keighley:
I have spoken to young men in some of the towns where this has been going on. Universally, they decry what happens. They say they are disgusted with the men who have been doing this but, equally, that they would never have dreamt of going to the police about it, because you do not turn on your own community.

This isn't just a few people posting on the net, it's a recognised problem that's been discussed in parliament, by MPs, by judges.

Regarding girls in their own communities, there's actually only been one prosecution regarding this type of abuse within these CSE cases. That involved one of the Leeds offenders and a family member. So the extent of any abuse within those communities remains doubtful and almost entirely anecdotal. The crucial difference however, is that girls within that community, should they have reported, would have been treated in the same way that any other victim of abuse would have been. They would not have had the police and local authorities shut the door on them, call them sluts, blame it on them. There are no accounts of this happening. But then, they had the right colour skin to be listened to.

ForalltheSaints · 08/02/2016 20:11

Their unwillingness to follow some basic rules the hotel has made is enough to warrant complaining to the lifeguard or the reception if you wish to do so out of their hearing.

AnthonyBlanche · 08/02/2016 20:12

Yes I'd do zzzzz. However I have not seen any newspaper reports of gangs of churchgoing Christians grooming and sexually abusing young girls, nor were the appalling recent mass assaults in Germany, Sweden etc perpetrated by gangs of churchgoing Christians, nor have I read any posts on mumsnet where a woman was leered at by bible thumping Christians. And please don't say that all the ethnic Brits (and therefore all who assault, rape etc) are Christians becuase we all know that there are very few practising Christians in the UK. I've also yet to,hear of a current mainstream Christian sect in the UK which promulgates the view that any woman who doesn't practise that religion is fair game to be sexually assaulted or raped.

BillSykesDog · 08/02/2016 20:12

Are the judges and MPs racists, sexists, xenophobes? Casey and Jay? The victims in Rotherham, Bradford, Leeds, Sheffield, Oxford, Derby etc, etc?

Actually I have absolutely no doubt vintage, ghosty, zzzzz that you would have been absolutely happy to describe those victims as exactly that pre-Jay if you had heard them speak of their experiences. Your response to the OP is exactly the same as the attitudes that covered up their crimes for so long.

AnthonyBlanche · 08/02/2016 20:17

Well said Bill

I do hope you're not a social worker ghosty God help any young girl who reports grooming by an Asian gang to you

ghostyslovesheep · 08/02/2016 20:19

One prosecution - oh well it must not be happening then

You don't have much understanding of the way women and girls are treated by the law I guess going by that post Bill

I'd love a link to the bit about the extent of abuse being 'doubtful' - sound like you are just pretending it doesn't happen but I'm sure you have based that on facts

My job brings me into direct contact with young people involved in CSE and it's not as you seem to believe - it's multi cultural on both side of the abuse - it's not an 'Asian men V white girls' issue no matter how much you want it to be

One of our most prolific abusers is a white male who take young people into the family home as it's his 'Christian duty' to help those in need

It's simply wrong to suggest abuse is an issue for one community alone

it's dangerous to focus on one community - funny but Rotherham actually taught us that!

ghostyslovesheep · 08/02/2016 20:20

Anthony + Bill I do support young people who have been abused yes - what do you do to help survivors of abuse - apart from post rants online?

VintageTrouble · 08/02/2016 20:21

Shock You are being very very offensive BillSykesDog How dare you say that I would victim shame? That I wouldn't believe an abused woman? Have I said that I don't believe the OP? Absolutely not. Of course I believe her. Do I think all men would have acted in the same way? Absolutely not.Do I think it is acceptable to say all men of a certain religion or a certain colour act the same way? Absolutely not.

Anthony have a read about the Roman Catholic Church and their "issues" with child abuse, and women as secondary citizens. And also the Irish Laundries? I suggest you do, you will then see the swathes of reports on

"churchgoing Christians grooming and sexually abusing young girls" although to be fair there were an awful lot of young boys involved too.

AnthonyBlanche · 08/02/2016 20:22

ghosty if your job is as you say it is I think you are giving away far too much information. Not very professional of you.

FirstWeTakeManhattan · 08/02/2016 20:24

Why were you concerned that you would 'appear racist'? What would have been racist about complaining about their behaviour?

I don't like the wording of the OP. I'm not convinced that it was 'accidentally' littered with somewhat provocative remarks.

These men behaved badly and made you feel uncomfortable. You should have reported them.

AnthonyBlanche · 08/02/2016 20:25

Oh really ghosty you absolutely take the biscuit! I really am done with this thread now as I refuse to,get into an "I do more than you do" ridiculous argument. To be honest I don't believe you are a social worker or anything of the sort.

ghostyslovesheep · 08/02/2016 20:26

no not really - I haven't given away anything identifying or personal so please don't worry about me

Bill is a little unpleasant Vintage - he like a good personal attack to cover his massive holes

You know how focusing on one section of a community as 'abusers' let other people of the hook in Rotherham (that'll be in your many reports Bill) - well you are both doing the same

approach every case with an open mind and listen to the facts - that way you get the facts and your assumptions don't do harm

VintageTrouble · 08/02/2016 20:27

Oh come on Anthony don't strop off. Mind you, you do have a lot of reading to do around Christianity and the abuse of women and children, and how the church hid, and continues to hide, it Smile

ghostyslovesheep · 08/02/2016 20:28

So the answer is 'bugger all' then - maybe start with a donation to your local Rape Crisis or Women's Refuge - they always need money and support

Have a lovely evening

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