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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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to think "neighbour" has assaulted my child

719 replies

BubbleBathAddict · 06/02/2016 08:17

Basically my 11 year old son was in a group of school friends yesterday after school. On the way home from the park they played "knock down ginger" -ie they knocked on a couple of front doors quite near us and ran away. Now this is not something I was aware of or would condone, but on the scale of "crime" it's not something to get too excited about.

My son said he did not do the knocking and stayed on the pavement.
At the second house the woman came out and yelled. The boys ran. All of them more quickly than my son it seems. Half way home (a few houses only) he felt someone grab his wrist and the said woman insisted he tell her where he live and frog-marched him home. He was in tears. I was at work, but his dad and older brother were in.

I do not know the woman at all. She apparently said her children were scared. I am pretty furious that she thought it was OK to grab and intimidate a child. That might have been appropriate 40 years ago, but these days touching anyone without consent is battery isn't it?

I don't want to over-react, but will be going over there today. What would you do?

OP posts:
razmataz · 06/02/2016 17:47

Interesting that nobody who is defending the OP and stating that the woman was wrong has come up with an alternative solution to the issue.

Short of physically restraining the boy, do you think he would have stopped if she had simply asked him to? Do you think he would have told her his name and where he lived so she could speak to his parents about it?

Clearly not.

So how else should she have dealt with it?

It's evident that this is not the first time this has happened, and also that the OPs son was not simply standing on the pavement. For a woman to be quick enough to open the door and grab hold of an 11 year old boy who is running away, she must have been standing right by the door waiting for it - which indicates that this probably happens daily.

If someone knocks on the door of my house, there's no chance I would be able to get out quick enough to catch anyone. I wouldn't be wearing shoes and I'd be on the sofa - it would take me at least ten seconds to get to the door, by which time anyone running away would be 50+ meters away.

sandylion · 06/02/2016 17:47

Here's a tip! Don't post in AIBU if you don't want to hear YABU. Oh it boils my piss, but I also find the subsequent comments such good entertainment.

NeedsAsockamnesty · 06/02/2016 17:47

Jamie can you stop spouting bollocks about harrasment please.

I spend my days assisting some very vulnerable people who are dealing with it and so many of them delay seeking help because some prat has told them they have to have reported it twice. It makes people's lives harder.

You do not have to have reported it twice.

And for what it's worth civil cases (perticularly sone of the types that deal with this sort of thing) often do not have a beyond reasonable doubt standard for evidence they have a balence of probability.

Bettercallsaul1 · 06/02/2016 17:51

Did anyone hear that tree fall? Grin

Incidentally, LittleLionMansMummy, Postman's Knock was a very different sort of game when I were a lass... Grin

MsJamieFraser · 06/02/2016 17:54

I think you need to get a grip!

I also spend my days assisting very vulnerable people. Maybe you should take it up with the police, because I have lived with my harassment for years, and I was also told it has to be reported twice!, not only by the police officers who have came to my house, but also the CAB and my solicitor.

In fact I could not take mine to criminal court until I have two police log numbers.... in fact I have 33, and 4 A4 log books.

StayWithMe · 06/02/2016 17:55

Wonder how many of the posters on here excusing the child, would feel pissed of at the unwelcome canvassers, cold callers, etc, disturbing them? Yet, the woman is seen as over reacting to brats knocking her door and running away.

It seems likely that the woman was waiting for the wee angels Hmm, if she caught them at it so quickly. The fact that she was so cross would suggest that it wasn't the first time. Is your son particularly slow at running OP? It's strange that the ones closest to the door, when she opened it, got away, while your son got caught. I would suggest that you have another word with your son, but there's probably no point as he will already feel you're excusing his behaviour.

HappyInL0nd0n · 06/02/2016 17:55

Kids bang on our door a lot and run away. I can ignore it - it's only on the rare days that I work from home that I hear it - but I really feel for my elderly neighbours. The knocking is really loud, persistent and abrupt, and it can be intimidating.

Your son was involved, and in my view, it's silly of you to focus more on the lady's reaction than his misbehaviour. Grabbing his wrist and escorting him home is not an assault.

Sallyingforth · 06/02/2016 17:55

Even re-reading my original post several hours later, I am not quite sure how this got so out of hand. I was always intending to go over with the son to take him to apologise, and without over-reacting was going to suggest it might not be a good idea to grab strange children as their parents might not be so understanding

You were going to take him to apologise to the woman who assaulted him. Yes of course you were Wink

And have you done so yet? Thought not.

Come back when you have, and you tell us how it went.

SuperFlyHigh · 06/02/2016 17:59

Exactly Sallyingforth highly unlikely this mother was ever likely to do anything about it - as I posted earlier she was angry etc...

But like hell was she going to apologise she was just affronted and outraged that her little darling had got caught. He should take responsibility regardless of whether he actually did the deed (which as some other posters say they think he did or has done it).

Am I the only person thinking here that if OP did actually speak to the mother about this that more than likely there'd be harsh words on both sides?!

RedOnHerHedd · 06/02/2016 18:06

This happened with my kids and some other kids on the street. The lady up the road (at the time was dealing with her elderly father who was dying), came out and shouted (she completely lost her temper to be fair) at all the kids. Two of the kids parents then went and had a go at the lady, I marched my kids to her house for them to apologise to her.

If they've done something wrong I'd have no problem with them being told off and coming to speak to me about it. But having a go at them for no reason, then I'd lose my shit. I'm firm but fair.

NeedsAsockamnesty · 06/02/2016 18:10

jamie

I don't need to take it up with the police because the ones in the areas I cover do pretty well.

You obviously do not assist them with obtain various protection orders and that sort of thing. I do.

sleeponeday · 06/02/2016 18:19

I never played it either, I grew up in a city, we played in the street. I agree with ArmchairTraveller I wouldn't knock on anyone's door and try and run away before they opened the door because the thrill of being caught never appealed to me but this was the only reason other children played it.

Same. I was always really afraid of getting into trouble as a child, so it would have made my stomach churn to risk it. Think it served the same purpose as a rollercoaster to other kids, though. And yeah, my mum would have been incensed if I'd done it, but I remember her going over when other kids did similar and their mother going ballistic to her, so it's funny to hear reminiscing about the good old days when parents always sided with other adults... not in Sarf Lundun in the early 80s they didn't!

Personally, I think it'd be really unfair if someone who'd simply ensured a child's parents found out what he'd been up to faced any legal consequences. She didn't actually hurt or threaten him, did she (?), just held him responsible to his own parents, which is what as a parent I would actually prefer. But I wouldn't risk doing it myself, partly because I don't fancy failing an enhanced DBS check if it got reported, and partly because a lot of parents would go absolutely nuts if you did - people can get astonishingly aggressive over their children, no matter the actual rights and wrongs. I think I'd probably do as a previous poster's parents did, and involve their school. Scary and embarrassing for the kids, and no risk to me. The story about the head opening the door to the knockees was brilliant. Grin

The woman could argue that it is preventing them from continuing with the harassment - after all, how does she or anyone else know that they don't intend to come back and do it again?

No, that wouldn't fly. Citizen's arrests are for situations when it's not practicable to seek to prevent/interrupt an indictable crime by involving the police. It isn't a vigilante's charter. Here, nothing prevented her calling the police, and anyway, it wasn't an indictable crime.

Harassment is an indictable offence.

Nope. Aggravated harassment is an either way offence (can be magistrate or Crown) but this isn't aggravated - it's not done to put someone in fear of violence, or to racially harass, let alone to stalk. It's just annoying, so a solely summary offence. Plus you'd have to be able to prove that the child in question had done this before, as opposed to others in the gang, which obviously you couldn't. Harassment isn't a one-off, by statutory definition.

whether all of that would be accepted in a court of law is largely irrelevant - the fact is that the chances of the police charging this woman with assault and battery given the possibility of these defences being raised and the likely views of any district judge or jury are, realistically, zero.

But it's not up to the police as to whether to charge or not, is it? That's the CPS' role. I'd be astonished if a judge or jury were involved, too - it would only be a magistrate's matter, surely, if it did get that far? And a bloke in Dundee pleaded guilty of assault on a child just last week for very similar actions, actually - grabbed the child's wrist and frogmarched them -obviously the law differs in Scotland, but it's still in the same ballpark when the argument isn't about law, but attitudes. (In fairness he knew the child, so there may be a lot more to it which hasn't been reported). I just don't think any of us can say this couldn't ever have legal consequences, based solely on what we personally think is right/fair. It doesn't work like that.

The problem with the law is you have to have a clearcut set of rules, and you can't say, "you can grab someone by the wrist, hold them against their will, and march them where you want if because you are angry about something they've done before, and that will be okay." Now and then you read stories about employers who do it when they find out a staffer has been stealing or something, and there is always outrage that the employer is charged over it. What's tricky here is that we don't regard kids as having the same rights because (reasonably) we have to discipline them ourselves, so we are used to the idea. But under the law, only parents are really allowed that wide margin of discretion in curtailing their rights - even teachers, nursery workers etc have their hands tied to some extent. The idea that a child has less legal protection than an adult when a stranger is dealing with them is dicey, I think. You aren't meant to take the law into your own hands, and there's no specific defence available to a stranger in terms of punishing a child.

Anyway. OP seems to have calmed down on the protective instincts for her son, and I don't blame her for being upset about what she's been faced with here. Some of the posts have been horrible.

limitedperiodonly · 06/02/2016 18:22

It's Creme Egg time of year again. Does anyone remember the suggestion of mollifying someone you'd pissed off with a Creme Egg?

OP: Don't do it. Just stay away.

sleeponeday · 06/02/2016 18:26

One could reasonably argue that taking the arm of an unsupervised 11yo who was behaving in an antisocial manor and removing him to a place of safety could be considered a lawful excuse and a safeguarding exercise

That seems really sensible.

sleeponeday · 06/02/2016 18:28

It's Creme Egg time of year again. Does anyone remember the suggestion of mollifying someone you'd pissed off with a Creme Egg?

Oh God, I shudder at the sight of them - gloopily sugary balls of pure evil that they are.

AlisonWunderland · 06/02/2016 19:02

My, there's some rewriting of history (and the opening post) going on here...

kali110 · 06/02/2016 19:06

Wash your mouth out sleeponeday! Creme eggs are the work of the gods....

sleeponeday · 06/02/2016 19:14

Wash your mouth out sleeponeday! Creme eggs are the work of the gods....

You mean Hades, right?

PurpleDaisies · 06/02/2016 19:15

Creme eggs are the work of the gods....

They certainly used to be. I'm not convinced by the new creme eggs at all. Why mess with perfection?

fastdaytears · 06/02/2016 19:16

I can't tell the difference Blush is there something wrong with me?

Floggingmolly · 06/02/2016 19:17

Did you buy yours from the corner shop, kali? It'll probably have been sitting there since 1992 pre Kraft days, which will explain why it was edible.

Bettercallsaul1 · 06/02/2016 19:32

Well, this thread has taken a welcome surreal turn! Photos of Aidan Turner will be appearing soon.

LoisWilkersonsLastNerve · 06/02/2016 19:34

I feel like drinking some wine and going out for a game of chappie. Anyone?

fastdaytears · 06/02/2016 19:38

Well I'm sorted for the wine but what is Chappie? The dog food?

Summerwood1 · 06/02/2016 19:39

Your son was to blame. Good on the woman,more people should stand up to such behaviour.