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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

to think "neighbour" has assaulted my child

719 replies

BubbleBathAddict · 06/02/2016 08:17

Basically my 11 year old son was in a group of school friends yesterday after school. On the way home from the park they played "knock down ginger" -ie they knocked on a couple of front doors quite near us and ran away. Now this is not something I was aware of or would condone, but on the scale of "crime" it's not something to get too excited about.

My son said he did not do the knocking and stayed on the pavement.
At the second house the woman came out and yelled. The boys ran. All of them more quickly than my son it seems. Half way home (a few houses only) he felt someone grab his wrist and the said woman insisted he tell her where he live and frog-marched him home. He was in tears. I was at work, but his dad and older brother were in.

I do not know the woman at all. She apparently said her children were scared. I am pretty furious that she thought it was OK to grab and intimidate a child. That might have been appropriate 40 years ago, but these days touching anyone without consent is battery isn't it?

I don't want to over-react, but will be going over there today. What would you do?

OP posts:

sleeponeday · 06/02/2016 14:55

Dear God.

OP, personally I would understand why this woman did this, and I would accept that she may have been inappropriate but at least it taught DS a salutary lesson.

Just a shame there's no way of grabbing the wrists of certain posters when they post in an appallingly antisocial manner. Have to wonder what their parents taught them about consideration for the feelings of others, hey?

I don't think you were being reasonable, no. But I think that pales in comparison to the kicking you've been given on here. If my kids ever speak to anyone as nastily as some posters do, I have failed as a parent.

Sometimes I feel like there should be a law: any post anyone ever makes that is solely commenting on another's situation may, at random, be shown to their employer and their children. Would alter posting styles quick smart, wouldn't it. The lack of consequence and the anonymity is a toxic temptation for some people.

BadlyBehavedShoppingTrolley · 06/02/2016 14:58

Knock Down Ginger is sort of a right of passage, isn't it? I think we all did it at least once, at least those of us who lived the sort of existence where we went out to play unaccompanied in a reasonably built up area.

But it's wrong and annoying to inconvenience people, especially the elderly, disabled, vulnerable or anxious. She shouldn't have manhandled him but maybe is she lives in an area where this kind of thing happens a lot she just lost her rag. If i were you I would not take it further as no real harm was done, but give him a stern talking to about how his actions can affect others much worse than he realises.

Gruntfuttock · 06/02/2016 15:03

Of course it hasn't given her food for thought BitOutOfPractice. Her intransigence is blatantly obvious from her replies.

Gruntfuttock · 06/02/2016 15:04

FFS! Why do people keep saying "We all did it" re. "knock down ginger"? No we didn't.

Narp · 06/02/2016 15:06

I never did it, although I was out playing every day when it wasn't raining.

I just knew it was a mean thing to do. I still hate practical jokes.

sleeponeday · 06/02/2016 15:08

I don't blame the infuriated other woman. I even think she taught the little boy a useful lesson - I don't agree with the OP that it is a serious matter, in these circumstances. But I also understand why his mum is upset, and some of the responses on here boggle my mind.

I haven't gone as far as checking whether that only applies to family members, though.

You seriously imagine it's legal for an adult to decide to apply corporal punishment to a stranger's equally unknown child? Seriously? In real life?

Anyone employed to care for children by an organisation is committing an offence if they smack them. Parents can consent to others smacking if they do so lightly, and purely as a disciplinary method. There can be no marks or bruising, even transient red marks. And it's clear here that the mother didn't consent.

ImogenTubbs · 06/02/2016 15:09

If that's assault, then I assaulted my 2yo DD earlier when I grabbed her arm to stop her running into the road.

allegretto · 06/02/2016 15:10

I once did the same (but without touching the child). I was absolutely furious as a child had put a firecracker in my bag and almost blew my hand off so I think I was justified - abit OTT for ringing the doorbell though.

StayWithMe · 06/02/2016 15:14

My friends and I would never gave dreamt of playing knock down ginger, when we were young, 40yrs ago. I grew up in a village and the only ones that played it were the blow ins from the city. It was considered very antisocial and rude. snob

TheFairyCaravan · 06/02/2016 15:16

OP I would take your son your son round with a bunch of flowers and make him apologise. His behaviour will be a lot easier to sort out now than in 5 years time.

I'm disabled and have 2 sons, they've never brought a minutes trouble to my door. I have, however been plagued with anti-social behaviour because the parents of the little shits, and that's what they are, wouldn't do anything about it and neither would the police. (We live in the same police authority as Fiona Pilkington did)

I had snowballs with rocks inside chucked at my windows, my house was egged, disgusting things written about me on Social Media, my children were bullied. Graffiti was written on my lawn, they reported me 3 times in 15 months to the DWP for "DLA fraud" (not proven). I even had lit fireworks thrown at my open bedroom window, and front door, when I was bedbouund following spinal surgery. The mother of the ringleader blamed me for her kid failing his GCSEs because the police were always at the door!.

I breathed the biggest sigh of relief ever when they moved out of the area.

If some 11yo started knocking on my door and running away I honestly wouldn't cope with it, and nor would my neighbour who is quite poorly. It's a shitty thing to do.

OzzieFem · 06/02/2016 15:16

Your son is an accomplice.He may not have been the one to knock on that particular door but you don't know if he did others. By standing there and watching he was basically condoning the other boys anyway. He should have walked away when he realised what they was doing if he was not part of the group. Rnning away just show

You could say she made a citizens arrest. An assault would have been if she had hit him. I don't blame her for being mad, why do some parents think it's alright for their kids to terrify other people, but start getting angry when people take action.

Yes YABU. So how did your husband react to the situation that you feel the need to confront this woman?

RedToothBrush · 06/02/2016 15:16

No that's bollocks. I never did. I refused to play with other kids when/if they did it because I didn't think the game was a good idea or funny. Its only a right of passage if you haven't got the backbone as a kid to say to others that you don't want to join in and its tough luck if you don't like it.

Not everyone is a sheep and felt the need to act like a dick, even when they are still kids.

OzzieFem · 06/02/2016 15:17

*Running away just showed his guilt.

Shutthatdoor · 06/02/2016 15:19

No we certainly didn't all do it!

StayWithMe · 06/02/2016 15:20

Not everyone is a sheep and felt the need to act like a dick

There ya go. A two in one. Sorry, I couldn't resist.

TaraCarter · 06/02/2016 15:20

You seriously imagine it's legal for an adult to decide to apply corporal punishment to a stranger's equally unknown child? Seriously? In real life?

Heh.

I (seriously) think that I have a responsibility to clarify which legal aspects I have checked and which I CBA to check. People have openly wondered about the legal position of a mother frog-marching her own child, on this thread, which I have answered, as I knew it to be explicitly legal.

Note that this isn't a thread about discipline at a playgroup or any childcare setting. It has far more similarities to an exam question about the citizen's arrests, tbh.

tomatodizzy · 06/02/2016 15:20

sleeponeday she didn't smack him. I read that in order for someone to be charged with assault or battery there must be a mens rea or an intention to commit the crime. If the woman had intended to assault the boy, for example if she'd taken his wrist, shaken him and shouted at him that would be assault. As it is she lead him to a responsible adult, her intention was for the parent to administer the punishment, so it is unlikely she could be convicted for battery or assault.

limitedperiodonly · 06/02/2016 15:24

their head teacher came round and sat in my living room, watching them come up the path and opened the door as they knocked. Scared the crap out of them

Whoever said this - sorry I'm quoting from someone else's post - that's exactly what happened when some young boys from the local secondary school were doing similar things to my elderly parents.

The shock on their faces when their head opened the door the instant they knocked was priceless.

They kept doing it at the same time - 12 year old boys aren't known for being master criminals - so he agreed to come round. He caught them the first day. Because of the way home from school, he and my parents had a good look at them approaching the door and he had plenty of time to lurk behind it.

The boy hadn't even let go of the knocker before he pulled it open

They were silly, as most of the kids who do this kind of thing are, but they needed to be told. It never happened again.

I'm surprised the woman managed to manhandle an 11 year old boy any distance. I'm not strong enough to do it and my hands are too dainty to get a good grip round a struggling 11 year old's wrist.

I'm not saying it didn't happen but she was either Fatima Whitbread or he was very, very compliant.

IAmPissedOffWithAHeadmaster · 06/02/2016 15:25

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Chinesealan · 06/02/2016 15:27

Stop thinking about whether or not the woman was in the Wrong. She did something inappropriate but under provocation.
Your responsibility is your son, not the angry woman. I hope he doesn't dare do it again.

bemybebe · 06/02/2016 15:30

Well done that woman.

sleeponeday · 06/02/2016 15:35

I read that in order for someone to be charged with assault or battery there must be a mens rea or an intention to commit the crime.

Sure. And manhandling someone is a crime. It's assault. In fact, assault actually means scaring someone. You don't even have to touch them. Touching them makes it a battery. So the mens rea WAS there, because she clearly meant to grab them by the wrist.

You are confusing the crime of assault and/or battery with the defence someone can use against that crime, which is to discipline a child. The DEFENCE being cited - that of reasonable chastisement - is utterly irrelevant, because the woman in question is not entitled to that defence at all. So you come back to: did she scare the person, and did she lay her hands on the person. The answer is yes.

Another good way of looking at this - if someone unknown to you grabbed your wrist, screamed at you that they wanted to know where you lived, and frogmarched you there clutching your wrist, do you think that is legal and totally non-criminal behaviour? Even if you'd tried to sell them something on the doorstep?

Again, I would understand if someone did that to my child, if he'd behaved in that way. I certainly wouldn't be trying to get the police to do anything about it! But that isn't the same as saying it's lawful behaviour.

A lot of people on this thread seem to think the law is what they think it should be. It does not work that way.

sleeponeday · 06/02/2016 15:37

Note that this isn't a thread about discipline at a playgroup or any childcare setting. It has far more similarities to an exam question about the citizen's arrests, tbh.

We clearly studied law at very different universities.

Floggingmolly · 06/02/2016 15:40

Of course it's "non criminal" behaviour, sleep. Don't be an arse. Terrorising people in their own homes isn't exactly exemplary behaviour either; from an 11 year old who should know fecking better.

GruntledOne · 06/02/2016 15:40

Yes, the defence of reasonable chastisement doesn't work, but the defence of reasonable action to prevent crime, and of lawful arrest, probably does.

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