To be flabbergasted by this?

[Cloudhopping]

My dd is in year 5 of a village school, which we are really happy with. As it's small, I know most of the parents at the school. My dd is learning about Islam as part of RE and is today visiting a Mosque as part of this. Some of the parents have not consented to their children going as they don't want their children visiting a mosque. I'm not sure of the exact reasons and realise I am making some assumptions here, but am I being unreasonable to be shocked by this attitude?

And I cover my head and don't feel any concern about that at all

That's you though Timely, if you're happy great, Im not criticising other people judgements. But there is no way on earth I would cover up because of what it represents - that its a woman's job to look modest to ensure men aren't "tempted".

I think this whole 'women covering their heads so my kids can't go because it is teaching them to be sexist' is a very convenient excuse for being anti Muslim. I know many of the most 'anti Muslim' people I know (ok, small sample, but it's basically people who are quite small minded) are actually very into boys and girls being 'different' - football for the boys, girls do the cooking etc. -, and are quite traditional and conservative about men and women's roles. The 'leftie', 'feminist' types would (again, only in my personal experience) have no issue with their children visiting a mosque and probably embrace it. I would be interested to know what newspapers and politics the various people on this thread read or align themselves to, very interested indeed. I think it would be quite telling.

Surely it depends on how the trip is structured?

If children of both sexes are allowed in both parts of the mosque, to actually learn about how and why it is structured as it is. If they're separated for the duration of the trip, to me that seems like an endorsement of sexism. I can just imagine boys crowing over girls afterwards "we got to go in the fancy bit, we're better than you...".

Girls might come back from the trip all indignant, but I bet a lot less boys would, and they need the same lessons...

Ok merry we are all racist, small minded, Daily Mail reading idiots because we don't agree with you.

Wow how egotistical are you.

Oooh handbag. Nope, not saying because you don't agree with me personally. Because you don't agree with most of the people I know, who tend to be the guardian reader types. And because you do agree with others I know who are a bit small minded about more than just mosque visits. S'all. I did say it was a relatively small sample size and I would be interested in what other views co exist with this one. My hunch is as I have mentioned above, but we'd need a sample of 1,000 or so to prove it. I'm sure there will always be a few exceptions and perhaps you are one of them, or perhaps not.

Even if you had a sample of 1000 you wouldn't believe them as you have just stated that people who have mentioned the head covering as an issue are using it as an excuse. Carry on making assumptions about people though.

I make no apologies for the fact that I don't particularly want my children attending a mosque, I have many issues with the Islamic religion, the reason I mentioned the head covering and females using the side door is because these are the issues relevant to the trip.

Is it really necessary for parents to correct their kids when they come home saying their were taught about Jesus and him being the son of God. Surely it's better for kids to learn about God and then they can make their own minds up when they're older. Correcting what they have been taught at school is only going to confuse. There could be many future scenarios where the grown up child will turn to the parents and say "you know what, you were wrong telling me that, I do believe in God. It's fine to be atheist, I don't think it's right to try and pass those beliefs on to your kids.

If you can't see the foolishness is your own post - then you're beyond any help that I can give you. You have said the exact opposite to me and seem to think that is better. Why? Why should I tell my son there is a god so that he can make up his mind later... How is that any different to saying there isn't a god so that he can make up his mind later?!

Absurd. And that's part of the problem. Theists cannot see that atheists can use exactly the same argument and that the theist argument is no more correct, no more superior than the atheist argument!

I think this whole 'women covering their heads so my kids can't go because it is teaching them to be sexist' is a very convenient excuse for being anti Muslim. I know many of the most 'anti Muslim' people I know (ok, small sample, but it's basically people who are quite small minded) are actually very into boys and girls being 'different' - football for the boys, girls do the cooking etc. -, and are quite traditional and conservative about men and women's roles

Hahaha!!! Thats fine, think Im racist small minded etc, I think it is you that is being very close minded because you cant seem to accept other have a different opinion to you, and the only possible explanation is they are racist and anti-Muslim. Making assumptions about people can lead to all sorts of problems and difficulties in relationships. Not sure how well your "theory" holds up with me either since my DH is a Child-minder, very traditional male role eh?!

That would only be absurd to an atheist. From the poor child's point of view he's going to start questioning everything he learns. He'll be like "hmm I wonder if that's true, better check with my mum first." Toatally crazy. Generations of kids have grown up absolutely fine learning about God, without interference from mum or dad. When they get older they can either think "what a load of crap" or else they'll actually believe...... You don't believe, it's arrogant to expect your child to have the same beliefs.

I repeat what I said before. How is what I am doing any different?!

I would be interested to know what newspapers and politics

Dont read newspapers and I vote for the SNP, does that help?

Yes it does somewhat, Laguna.

Yet again, speaking out against sexism is perceived as being racist.

I'm one of your leftie feminists, Merry. As said before, i encourage my daughter to speak out against gender stereotypes and sexism she sees about her. I don't believe in 'girl' things and 'boy' things.

Why on earth should I or my daughter put our feminist views to one side when it comes to religion? As said before, i would 100% support the school taking them to a mosque or another place of worship in order to expose them to some diversity. But only if the school could guarantee that all male and female visitors on the trip would be treated in the same manner. If my daughter was required to cover her head 'in respect' then I would want every single visitor to have to do the same - male or female.

Women's rights trumps religious nonsense every time for me. And I hope to pass this belief on to my daughter.

laguna hippa
For all those that wouldn't allow their children to visit a mosque due to concerns about exposure to sexism- do you allow your children to be taught Islam in school, and if so, do you discuss the curriculum with the teacher prior to that to ensure that it is taught in a way you find acceptable taking into account your views? This is a genuine question and I'm not interested in mud slinging, personal accusations etc- I'm just interested as if a visit to a mosque is unacceptable for the reasons that are stated where do we as parents draw the line with teaching religion generally?

I'm also interested in whether those that object to the visit have a particular religion themselves? Realise this is a personal question and some may not want to answer this. For what it's worth I class myself as Athiest and am quite open with my children but tell them they are free to find their own beliefs. I realise that being an Athiest myself is likely to result in the indoctrination of my children on some level to this philosophy but I want them to learn about different cultures, religions etc so they can make up their own minds as far as is possible. I realise this sounds a bit Guardian reader smug and I don't mean it to be, but it really is the truth.

Good glad to clear that one up. Please enlighten me in exactly what way you have stereotyped me then, the only thing you can possibly take from that is I live in Scotland as you cant vote for the SNP anywhere else. But you seem to be very good at making assumptions so this should be good!

This one always seems to crop up With the same old reasons why it's terribly bad to go visit a mosque.
Male/female thing first - praying in a mosque is obligatory for men and women can choose to or not (ie far more freedom for women) ergo the big door is for men as they go there more often. Inside the rooms look the same except the women's one is usually a bit smaller but then it's used less.
Women dress modestly as do men, men also should wear a skull cap thing when praying.
Visiting school children wouldn't be asked to cover their heads if they wanted to that is upto them. When my daughters class went some of the girls loved wearing the bright coloured scarfs entirely optional.

The segregation of men and women praying is because during prayers we bow and prostrate (in rows) and to be quite honest I wouldn't want to be bending over with my backside in some poor chaps face. I am sure he would be focussed on prayer (not saying men are all pervs or owt) just that it's about being comfortable and thinking about prayer and nowt else.

And that is it

I was raised Church of Scotland Cloud but no I wouldnt say I have a religion now, and whilst I probably wouldn't describe me as an Athiest Im certainly no fan of religion based on my DHs experiences, that's just my personal opinion however, I'm sure there are a lot of good people who are religious who are doing good work etc. Regarding my children I do with them with what I guess we all do - raise them to the best of my abilities and one at least has grown into a well rounded adult who I'm very proud of, yes with a mind of his own, and thankfully not having a sexist attitude to women. I cant predict the future as the others are younger but I can make a good guess based on their characters now that they will be the same as their elder brother.

As a woman who despises sexism and its effects its been important to me in raising 3 sons to raise them to see women as equals otherwise how is sexism going to be eliminated? I get very angry at obvious examples of sexism and I guess the way women are viewed - and treated - in Islam is a clear example of this for me so I would feel strongly about my children witnessing it to. Learning about it I have no issue with, but as I have attempted to explain several times on this thread I don't see visiting a Mosque as a necessary way to learn, its just not, whereas learning about it at home, school etc is different to me. So no I wouldn't object to learning about Islam at school.

I have not criticised or been derogatory about anyone who has a different view. However I have been labelled a racist, a bigot, an idiot, my children's confidence levels have been questioned, and then there was the post about them not growing up to study Latin etc because of me . And of course a prize for making the most assumptions should go to Merry who thinks everyone that doesn't think like her/him is small minded!

Tallybally what a load of rubbish regarding the modesty thing - when was the last time you seen Muslim men covering their entire bodies from head to foot in any garment so that their bodies arent on display to "tempt" women?

Laguna - I think that since I am a Muslim might possibly know what I am talking about. women don't have wear that - some women Choose too - you might not want to or like it, but for some women they feel that it is right for them. People are allowed to be different and make their own choices . During prayer men must be covered up difference being there trousers have to be rolled up above their ankles.

No need to be insulting - when I am just trying to clarify misconceptions

But I'll leave you to it.
#wandersofftotalkrubbishelsewhere

Tally I'm not and never have disputed it's Muslims women's own choice to cover up. Im not being insulting - men and women are treated different in Islam and it's not about me not wanting to hear anything - it's a clear example of sexism. If you want to choose to cover yourself up because of your religious beliefs then of course then it's up to you. But there's no way it's not sexist, regardless of whether women are going along with it or not.

And at no point on this thread have I ever said women HAVE to cover up.

I visited a mosque recently as part of a school trip. There was no discrimination made between the boys and the girls for the purpose of the trip although it was pointed out to them what is usual practice for their religion. The girls did have to wear headscarves, the boys given caps and we had to remove our shoes but that to me is a matter of showing respect. It was a very interesting and informative visit which the children enjoyed

cloud I will leave my dc learn about Islam and other religions in school, I don't feel that they have to physically go and witness something to learn about it.

As I said for me personally it goes against a lot of what I hope to raise my sons to be i.e men who see women as their equals not inferior people that should moderate their behaviour around men.

Just to counter the whole I don't need to go to a mosque to learn anything argument - the same people saying this are the ones with the misconceptions about what happens in a mosque on one of the visits or girls have to cover hair and use a different entrance - I work in a mosque as a liaison officer (hired and paid for by the mosque as a means of combating islamophobia - no government or taxpayers money involved for those who will want to point this out!)
Anyway my point is this is rubbish for the mosques in my region- I loose with pretty much all 24 of them on community relations- tours are given with everyone together.
Boys, men, girls and women!
Also we have a "dressing up" session as part of the tours - Where all are offered skull caps, bandana type tie or hijab or the full face covering as well as the long abaya type unisex "dresses" if they want to try them on and see what they feel like.
For the person that said where have you ever seen a man covered from head to toe? Have you never seen Arab men in a long white dress like outfit with a head covering or men of Asian descent in a knee length dress like covering with trousers under and a skull cap on?
Same as any religion / culture they have some people that are still dressing in that traditional manner and some that are more westernised in jeans, etc.... IMO the fact that you seem ignorant of these things is exactly why your children should visit these religious places so we can stop them having these misconceptions about Islam and other religions- that is one of the reasons for having these school trips!
Ultimately though we're all free to choose how we want to live and if that means not visiting a religious establishment and remaining in your bubble then that's a personal decision!

And to the original poster I think it would be quite interesting if you could "casually" find out people's reasons for not allowing their children to go eg "hi Emma, heard you're not going to let little Rosie go on that trip to the mosque and I was curious why as am planning on letting my precious LO go and if there's a reason not to then I want to know"

I did this with my 11yo after some people wouldn't allow their children to go to a Hindu temple- turns out it was that old case of being wary of what they didn't know

Btw these are my personal opinions not having a dig at anyone and also haven't read the whole thread so apologies if this has all already been stated!

thats the mosques in your area though, other people have stated what the rules are in their local mosques.

Also I think you are being disingenuous to say your not having a dig when in your post you mention people being ignorant and living in a bubble.