To be flabbergasted by this?

[Cloudhopping]

My dd is in year 5 of a village school, which we are really happy with. As it's small, I know most of the parents at the school. My dd is learning about Islam as part of RE and is today visiting a Mosque as part of this. Some of the parents have not consented to their children going as they don't want their children visiting a mosque. I'm not sure of the exact reasons and realise I am making some assumptions here, but am I being unreasonable to be shocked by this attitude?

Sorry cherub, i misunderstood your post. [Flowers]

What is a very sad fact though is that majority of this outrage at visiting mosques is not so much due to parents not believing in religion, but bigotry/racism/prejudices.

Bigotry/racism/prejudice because we don't want our children to visit a mosque?

If there's such thing as prejudice against sexism then I'm happy to be prejudice.

The crux of it for me is that cutting ourselves and our children off to learning about/seeing first hand another religion, culture etc whatever the reason, is damaging to society. For me therefore it is not a matter of 'each to their own'. It makes the segregation, the divisions in our society worse. It breeds misunderstanding, ignorance, fear, stereotype and prejudice. I agree now that I was being unreasonable at experiencing shock at some parent's not allowing their children to go to a mosque. These attitudes are regretfully more common amongst people than I thought.

Very few if any racist bigots actually acknowledge that they are racist bigots. Instead they think they are standing up for something
See white folk in 50's Alabama.
Actually they are no better than the the puported beliefs that they stand against. It's known as a form of 'small mindedness'
And yes many mostly ready the daily mail.
I'm not singling out any poster particularly so don't feel like this is a personal attack on anyone.

Good post cloud.

Well if this one thing this thread has brought home is how lucky we are to live in a society where we have choices.

Those who wish their children to visit various places of worship are able to and those who don't have the option to opt out.

I have seen no racism on his thread and the only digs have been at people like me who wouldn't let my dc go. We have been called racist, islamaphobic, small minded and many other things. I think this quite clearly says more about the posters themselves.

I will teach my sons that women are their equals and still would not want or feel the need for them to visit a mosque in the same way I wouldn't send them to a edl/Britain first meeting to understand about racism.

Hippa,

Similarly, the orthodox jewish woman in a synagogue and the orthodox muslim woman in a mosque is happy in her apparently sexist surroundings too.

As it has been argued, women doing most of the housework is also sexist. I take it you dont visit or allow your children to visit any homes of friends and families where they have a sexist set up where women do majority of the housework either? Or do you save your outrage for the muslim mosques only by not allowing your children in there, cos don'tcha know...they're sexist!

Cloudhopping. I am not sure I agree. I don't think I would have any problem with my kids not going to a Scientology "temple" or a Mormon Church. I don't think their lives would be severely impacted by not learning about these or other religions or it would make them bigots/racists/closeminded. I think we put too much emphasis on learning about and respecting religion and not enough on questioning it and all the cultural norms that come with it. I also don't think enough respect is given to atheists and their right to not believe in anything and to not have religion shoved down their throats in the name of inclusivity.

Well said cloud and jazz.

Hippa, yes arent you great for stating that we have choices! A choice that you are denying your children!

Then you go on to say that you have seen no racism on this thread. Racism is a disgusting thing. Not always so black and white! But as a pp already said, no racist ever sees racism.

Well it depends ditch, if it was a household where women had to use the back door, cover themselves up incase the men can't control themselves, not look men in the eye and were considered unclean if they were on a period then who does the cleaning would be the least of my worries.

Good for the Orthodox Jew and the Muslim women if they are happy in their place of worship I'm hardly suggesting we close them down am I. I think the only one outraged is you.

Ah ok ditch so I'm now a racist!? The key phrase is my children, you can do what you like with yours that's fine but my children are my responsibility and I will do my upmost to ensure they grow into well rounded, open minded men. Seeing the females in their class being treated in such a blatantly unfair manner has no part in that for me.

In the same way I will teach them to cook and do housework and all the other things that used To be seen as womens work.

Haven't RTFT but knew I'd see the word racism. How ridiculous, Islam is a religion not a race. Muslims come in all nationalities and colours and I am never shocked to see the racist card foolishly pulled.

Hippa, your ill informed and ignorant statements are very revealing. How many households are you aware of where women may use only the back door to get into their own home upon the instruction of their husband? My guess is zero

How many households are you aware of where women keep themselves covered in front of the husband in their home? My guess is zero

How many non muslim households are you aware of where woman does majority of the cleaning? My guess is, plenty!

Yet your outrage is directed at the sexism displayed by zero households and you seem to allow the sexism that you see in plenty of households around you to go unchecked! Its pretty pathetic really.

No, no trace of any bigotry there...nope!

Hippa your posts clearly indicate that you have chosen to adopt an anti Muslim opinion, and you are excersizing your right to bring you children up with that view.
Whatever your reasoning, you cannot disagree with that statement.
You should also see why you may be thought of as intolerant or bigoted.

Fair enough jazz I will accept that, but I think to be intolerant I would have an issue with other people following Islam which I dont so I disagree with you on that point.

Ditch you have spectacularly missed my point once again. I challenge sexism in all its forms and will teach my sons to do the same. Just because it's in the name of religion it should still be challenged.

We went to a mosque in Year 6 (2005). I remember it because it was one of the most interesting school trips we went on. None of us had to go in through separate entrances, no-one had to cover their heads (we were actually told to take hats etc off to show respect). The people who run the mosque said that Muslims are expected to follow the rules when they worship there, but we were guests and not there to worship. It was a really interesting visit and I really enjoyed it, but looking back I remember a couple of pupils not being allowed to go even then (hugely Christian, backwards, insular area).

And to make it a bit clearer for you ditch, on the point of would I let my children visit a house where the woman does the majority of the cleaning, if I had a son and daughter and was told on visiting the house my daughter would have to clean while my son was watching TV then no we wouldn't visit because it goes against what i'm teaching my sons. In the same way that seeing the females in their class treated unequally on a school trip does.

There is only one side the intolerance and bigotry is coming from on this thread.

I respect others views to do as they wish but I get challenged and verbally abused on my views, fair game because I'm not religious?

the thing is hippa, you werent respecting other views at all were you. You were having a go at all mosques (and muslims) as being sexist despite numerous posters telling you otherwise about their experiences visiting a mosque. you then generalised it and extended it to muslim households making their women use back doors etc. its just ludicrous talk. If you are truly against sexism, then you would address it wherever you see it, muslim or non muslim. But to single out your outrage against only a particular group against what you perceive to be sexism, yet have no true knowledge of because you havent even visited, is frankly intolerant, prejudiced and bigoted.

Um you are wrong actually, you asked about households where women do the cleaning if you read back I didn't mention Muslim households at all. So maybe a bit less outrage and more reading.

Pretty sure I also said I challenge sexism wherever I see it or did you miss that post too?

Maybe take the chip off your shoulder, stop getting so worked up and stop trying to create a racist tone to my posts when it's not there.

Ah hippa, your examples were full of stereotypes held about muslims though werent they. using back door, covering and then the classic...unclean during menses. You werent giving general sexist household examples, you were giving stereotypical, ill though out, bigoted and prejudiced views of what you think muslims do.

Racism and bigotry is gross!

My point was that those are the reasons that I wouldn't want my child going to a mosque and if the same was happening in a household be it Muslim, Jewish, Catholic or whatever I wouldn't want them going there either.

It's pretty obvious that you don't think that I as a parent should have the right to stop my children going places I don't want them to fortunately the school disagrees with you.

Plenty of people have given examples where Muslim, Buddhist and Christian parents have chosen not to allow their children to attend alternative places of worship. Is this ok because it's for religious reasons?

Ditch you are never going to understand my point and only see what you want to see. I will leave it at that. I've been called done horrible things which I'm not here yet I've attempted to explain, yet you are just so determined to see racism where there is none.

Agree with laguna "you are determined to see racism where there is none".

It's actually attitudes like yours ditch that halter civilised discussion about the various issues religion imposes on society.

There's only one narrow minded bigot here.

People are perfectly free to not let their children go on any school trip for whatever reason they see fit, and a belief that Islamic cultures are generally speaking in relative terms more sexist than others is IMO a fairly reasonable one and if they don't want their children to have to cover their heads or for them to see other women, like their teacher, have to do it, well that is entirely their business.

They don't need to ask the permission of the self-appointed culture police on this thread, or to spend hours justifying why British culture is just as bad in every single way to satisfy their silly, navel-gazing cultural relativism. Islam is a religion, not a race. Plenty of people aren't keen on religion at all. Plenty of Muslim families opt their children out of visits to churches, sex education etc. I'm sure that's entirely different though, isn't it?

There are a few posters here who appear to like nastily mocking people's intellect, sneering at people and calling them racists and bigots rather more than they like putting forward a reasoned argument. Here's one for you, from an Iranian feminist:

maryamnamazie.com/articles/racism_cultural_rel.html

Let us be clear about what cultural relativism is. It is a profoundly racist phenomenon, which values and respects all cultural and religious practices, irrespective of their consequences for women. It asserts that the rights of people, women and girls are relative to where they are born, "their" cultures and religions. There is no right or wrong according to cultural relativists. As a result, cultural relativism supports and maintains sexual apartheid and violence against women in Islam-stricken societies like Iran because it is "their culture and religion" and it creates ghettoized, regressive "minority" communities in the West where women and girls continue to face apartheid and Islamic laws and customs.

venus you are missing the point. Muslim families not allowing their children to visit churches etc is just as narrow minded in my view so your statement is a huge assumption on my beliefs, and it's wrong.

You are missing the point somewhat with your quote about cultural relativism. It is not about accepting any religion as it comes, right or wrong. It is about our children learning and experiencing aspects of the main religions in our society so they can make up their own minds about them, and make their own judgements. There is clearly a lot of assumption and stereotype about Islam going on here from some posters and it from those that want their children to have limited contact with Islam, compounding the issue even further.