To be flabbergasted by this?

[Cloudhopping]

My dd is in year 5 of a village school, which we are really happy with. As it's small, I know most of the parents at the school. My dd is learning about Islam as part of RE and is today visiting a Mosque as part of this. Some of the parents have not consented to their children going as they don't want their children visiting a mosque. I'm not sure of the exact reasons and realise I am making some assumptions here, but am I being unreasonable to be shocked by this attitude?

The mention of apartheid in Maryam Namazie's quote reminds me of a quote from Nelson Mandela "Education is the most powerful weapon with which to change the world"

Only those children who are educated about others religions and learn through their own eyes and own experiences can be part of the mechanisms of change. My boys live in a very sexist society (a Christain one). I am sure they will be part of the generation that makes the changes, because I am educating them about why those divisions are wrong. There is nothing you can teach your children if you restrict their lives to you and yours because you do not like the ways of others. It is that attitude that has created and condoned sexist practices for centuries. There are plenty of Muslim men and women who do not like the sexism and inequality either, prophet Mohammad improved the lives of women and girls significantly in his time. Modern Muslims should be continuing to do so. If you are not exposed to Islam you can never know that. As this thread unfortunately highlights.

Do our children have to experience something firsthand to be able to learn about it? I don't think so myself.

I just think that all religion is about picking and choosing the bits you subscribe to. I am what would be termed 'agnostic'. I went to a CofE school and loved the stories about morality such as the feeding of the 5,000 and the good samaritan etc. Do I believe Christ existed? Yes, probably. Do I believe he's the son of God? No, probably not. I know people who go to Church every Sunday, yet believe in capital punishment rather than forgiveness. Catholicism could be deemed one of the most 'sexist' religions for disempowering women the control of their bodies with contraception. And let's not forget that only men can be priests or Pope. Nuns must cover their hair too. Undoubtedly some of the more extreme facets of Islam can be deemed sexist. Yet some of the most enlightened, intelligent, strong women I know are also Muslims who would never think of using a back door unless they had forgotten their front door key, don't cover their hair and make no apologies for menstruating. I visited a mosque when I was at school, I also visited a Hindu temple. They were the most interesting school trips I went on. Yes I was struck by the unfairness of women and men praying separately and entering through different doors (not the back door, just a different one) and I came to that conclusion all on my own, questioned it and we were all encouraged to ask questions about it. I suppose mosques are as different from each other as the buildings of the various denominations of Christianity. I'm pretty certain my local church bears no resemblance to a Catholic Church yet they are both practising Christianity. I will send my son on visits to all of these places of worship if I believe it will open his eyes and his mind. And if I've brought him up correctly he too will question and challenge the parts of religion that he believes collide with his own values. I'm not afraid of exposing him to these various beliefs because I have confidence in him making his own judgement, hopefully founded on the morality we have imparted to him. He knows that dh's and my household, beliefs and values are very different to those of my sister's (who does all the housework in their house!) but I won't stop him going there - he needs to understand first hand that people are different and seeing is believing, as they say. Teaching theory with children is nowhere near as powerful or effective as letting them see it first hand.

Little I agree with the majority of your post. I just know how often children are encouraged not to question religion, or questioning it being seen as disrespectful by teachers that I don't feel they would be encouraged to challenge the sexism they may experience.

Of course I know this is not the case with all teachers but in my experience its sadly true.

The thead is reduced to levels of ridicule when people start bandying around the word racism in relation to religious belief in order to silence differing opinions. Both Islam and Christianity are religions followed by people of numerous races and cultures. Religion is a belief system. You are not a racist if you disagree with a belief system. Please can people stop using the word racist before it loses any meaning.

In my experience, hise who complain of people 'pulling the racist card' tend to be ....racist! They dont like being confronted as being racist. They like to diguise their racism and present us as a 'legitimate' argument. The underlying ravism is still there. Calling such racism islamophobia, detracts from the the true vileness of what is being said, because at the moment, islamophobia is in vogue - just like anti semitism was not too long ago. So people don't mind being called islamophobic, it makes them feel like they in the 'in-crowd' and being quite fashionable.

See those same people present the argument that islam is not from the West, it comes from those brown people in the East. It is therefore somehow incompatible with the values of the white West. So yes, it is steeped in racism. No doubt about it . Call these people what they are - racist.

Then there are those who try to talk about not wanting anything to do with Islam or sending their kids to visit a mosque. Yet the same people want every muslim integrated and assimilated into 'britishness' which even they cannot tell you what it constitutes. So those brown people need to become like 'us'. The British empire had many attempts at trying to 'civilise' anybody not like 'us'. Wear too little and you are savages, wear too much and you are savages. Black people were something to be mocked, killed And enslaved. why? Because they were different? Jews were something to be mocked and killEd..why? Because they were different?

Muslims are now too visible. something to be mocked. Why? Because they are different? History repeats itself and enlightened Europe still learns nothing. Same shitty racism, different day.

Wow ditch I think you have some serious issues that you are reflecting on to this thread. It was me you called racist and tbh I think it shows your own ignorance not mine.

I refuse to engage with you any further as you are bordering on hysteria.

Hippa, my above post wasnt aimed at any one single person and I assure you I am calm, not hysterical. I will call out racism where i see it, even if it is disguising itself as 'concern'.

When you speak of hysteria, just think back to the hysteria over a school visit to a mosque.

Hippa - yes I think I was very fortunate with my school's encouragement of pupils asking searching, but respectful, questions. My junior school was CofE but my secondary school was an inner city (and therefore culturally diverse) multi-faith state school with some absolutely amazing teachers. I think if handled well, visits to such places can be extremely valuable.

I'm not missing the point. No one needs to go to a Mosque to learn about Islam. It's not an experience that anyone "needs" to have. To exempt your child is a parenting decision you personally wouldn't make, but it's not your business what other parents do.

The point about cultural relativism is that saying "well that's just their culture" is not always a good thing. It is supposedly about tolerance, but often means that we overlook sexism and let women and girls down. It was in response to Ditch' s rather hysterical efforts to make other posters concede they were prejudiced against Muslims. And that is the sort of bullshit cultural relativism that Maryam Namazie despairs of.

Venus, you are missing the point - spectacularly. Firstly you decided to use Daily Mail's much loved term 'race card',and now you disguise your prejudices as a 'parenting choice'. So many excuses.

So dull. Point out where I used the term "race card", go on. I think your own prejudices may have got the better of you there!

Do you know what ditch I think you're disappointed that there's been no "fuck the Muslims, get them out" type of posts, your post are aggressive, you're on some kind of one woman mission to fight racism when you've continually demonstrated you have no understanding of the term.

You are the one missing the point, continually. Just because people have different views to you and disagree with parts of Islam does not make them racist. As I said previously take the chip from your shoulder, you're spoiling for a fight and it's embarrassing.

Venus, i must apologise to you as I mistook you for another venus who posted a bit before you. I admit my mistake and apologise. I also admit that now that I read your message as a single entity, then no, it is not prejudiced, merely a viewpoint to which you are fully entitled to.

In answer to your post at 13:29, i agree, saying 'its just their culture' is not always a good thing, but talking at those women and girls instead of talking to them, isnt exactly empowering. You Need to engage with those women and girls without insulting the values and everything they hold dear. You might not agree with their values, but you can put it eloquently and make it thought provoking instead if the constant attacks. What you get on these threads is lecturing tones and it is a big reason why muslim women will not engage.

I'm not missing the point. No one needs to go to a Mosque to learn about Islam.

Shall we then speculate as to why it is considered important enough for a school to 'waste' half a day on it.

Personally, when I visited a mosque I found it really eye opening, and it helped me to have a lot more empathy with Muslim people's and a MUCH greater understanding. I do have 2 head covering friends (incidentally strong, talented, women who do it through their choice. One of their husband's is not keen on it actually!) but I STILL got something from my visit to the Mosque. I haven't talked a lot of deep religious stuff with my friends, so I think it just helped me to understand what they believe from a 'heart' point of view more than a 'theoretical' point of view. I know that probably sounds woolly, but not sure how to better describe it. I would say part of the point of the visit is to encourage this empathy and a deeper understanding.

There's always the race card pulled on threads like this, even when no racism is evident. No one has said " I don't like Islam or everything it stands for" or words to that effect as they might if it was about Christianity. It's fine to have opinions on all religions and people shouldn't be always so defensive.

You Need to engage with those women and girls without insulting the values and everything they hold dear. You might not agree with their values, but you can put it eloquently and make it thought provoking instead if the constant attacks. What you get on these threads is lecturing tones and it is a big reason why muslim women will not engage.

There's another thread running on which Muslim women have been posting until yesterday, but since posting an opposing view, they've all disappeared again

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2561830-World-Hijab-Day?msgid=59094458

The posts in the last 24 hrs, in fact for most of that thread have not been 'attacking'.

It seems to me that using 'feeling attacked' is a very convenient excuse to hide behind, close down debate / not answer your critics. It's what the whole Islamophobia industry is about really.

BTW I don't have any issue with any child visiting any place of worship, regardless of whatever repugnant beliefs they teach there. However, it's very hypocritical of you though to be accusing others of racism when you adhere to an ideology that preaches and practices religious supremacism.

Mistress, thanks for that snippet about another thread.
I dont wish to be directed to another thread thank you. I assure you yesterday would not have been the first time an opposing view would have been posted, that all the muslim women have run away after opposition.

You use vile terminology about 'islamophobia industry'. The whole anti semitism 'industry' was pretty much about the same thing too. You are a delight arent you. I can now see why muslim women would not engage with you. If this is a glimpse of the way you attempt to 'engage' with muslims, then I am not surprised that they dont have the time of day for you either. And frankly speaking, neither do I!

If you'd bothered to ask, instead of arrogantly assuming yet again that you know people are ignorant bigots, or if you'd visited the link she gave you, MistressMia is a British Pakistani. She's entitled to think what the hell she likes about a religion practiced by the vast majority of her own community.

Since when did criticising or expressing a dislike for any or all religion become racist? I dislike all religion and think the world would be a better place without any of it - does that make me racist??

Despite the fact that I have no time for any religion it does seem to be the case that at this time in human history Islam is the most repressive and dangerous religion. To my mind It is therefore right that it is criticised, and not just for the fact that many Muslim women are second class citizens within their own religion.

Venus, calm down. So what if mistress is pakistani, the language she used was still utterly vile. She can think and say whatever she likes, But the fact still remains, she has a vile attitude towards islamophobia and muslim women. If her comments are anything like the one she posted on here, its hardly surprising that muslim women dont want to engage with her. I really couldnt care less where she comes from and am not surprised that her vile and goady attitude puts muslim women off talking to her on some other thread that she felt compelled to post on here

But enough talk about some stranger on the internet. Peace to you all

mistress I am one of posters that commented on the other thread that you have referred to as disappearing. I can assure you that I am still here I generally don't get involved in these threads as inevitably what starts out as interesting debate turns into an "us" and "them". I have no desire to convert anyone into my way of thinking and at the same time I do not feel that I need to justify my choices, therefore do not feel as if I need to hang around in a thread and counterclaim every post.

Now that I am here, I think it is a personal choice whether anyone sends their children on a trip, regardless as to where it is. What I would add though is that in my own mosque it is a chance to give children (who often have had little exposure to islam/muslims other than the media) a chance to see that muslims are actually human beings, and the vast majority do not pose a threat. In our mosque children are asked what they know about islam/muslims and discussion is encouraged. Some children bring thoughts and ideas that must come from home (one child said that their father said that all Syrian children should have their throats slit) and they seem pleasantly surprised that muslims have "proper" jobs and support the same football team as them. In that way it is useful as bridging the gap of understanding, and reduces fear that some children seem to have. We don't have a dress code and there is only one entrance. Most children are excited at the prospect of trying on colourful clothing whilst the teachers sit in the corner and eat. I see it as a cultural visit rather than a religious one, and I feel visiting other people's places of worship etc first hand, rather than reading about them in the DM to be a very valuable experience for my children.

My parents separated when I was young and I was brought up in an Independent church, where I have never seen such closed minded people who are in fear of and loathe other religions/cultures. This has made me want to expose my children to various cultures/lifestyles/religions so that they can form their own opinion.

Um, what is so bad about linking to another thread? It's something that happens often. I've been on MN since 2005 and never seen anyone conplain about it. Starting a TAT, OK, not done, but linking to another has never been a problem. When did that become a cause of ?

This thread is a perfect example of how any discussions on Islam gets shut down by those so quick to call racism and islamaphobia. Ironically they are also the ones who state that people are ignorant and don't understand the religion but are unable to engage in reasonable discussion.

I think maybe because of the Islam beliefs towards women and children might be a reason