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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To be flabbergasted by this?

300 replies

Cloudhopping · 03/02/2016 12:59

My dd is in year 5 of a village school, which we are really happy with. As it's small, I know most of the parents at the school. My dd is learning about Islam as part of RE and is today visiting a Mosque as part of this. Some of the parents have not consented to their children going as they don't want their children visiting a mosque. I'm not sure of the exact reasons and realise I am making some assumptions here, but am I being unreasonable to be shocked by this attitude?

OP posts:
LovelyFriend · 03/02/2016 14:16

Do you want your children to learn about Ancient Greece laguna?

Life for women in ancient Greece was equivalent to life for women living under Taliban rule today - so I guess not.

Cel982 · 03/02/2016 14:19

As for different treatment of boys and girls, what a fantastic opportunity for the teacher to engage the whole class in a discussion about gender discrimination in religion as a whole.

I think it's very unlikely that the teacher will follow up a trip to the mosque with a discussion of the inherent misogyny of Islam (and other religions), in a class that presumably includes Muslim children.

I would let my child go, but afterwards we would definitely be having a chat about those issues, and I would be letting her know that she is not obliged to 'respect' beliefs and practices that are so fundamentally unjust.

LovelyFriend · 03/02/2016 14:20

let's all not forget that Islam doesn't have exclusivity on misogyny. Most religions including Christianity are pretty misogynist.

LagunaBubbles · 03/02/2016 14:22

OK, what do you do when you're on holiday in some ancient city having an historic mosque or cathedral or museum (housing art that is inevitably heavy with religious context)?

Think you are making huge assumptions about about my holidays firstly, not quite sure of your question - what do I do when I see a Mosque, cathedral, museums artificats? You would have to be inside in the first place....

Religion has driven parts of my family apart and royally screwed up my DHs childhood and a large part of his adulthood, thank god for therapy is all I can say.

Sosodizzy · 03/02/2016 14:24

Nancy, is that all you took from my post?

For those bewildered by visits to the mosques on grounds of sexism, here are some quotes from the bible.

1 Corinthians 14:34-36
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Ephesians 5:22-24
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

Colossians 3:18
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.

1 Timothy 2:11-15
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing.

LittleLionMansMummy · 03/02/2016 14:25

let's all not forget that Islam doesn't have exclusivity on misogyny. Most religions including Christianity are pretty misogynist.

This ^^

I suppose the question is whether you let your child visit any religious establishment.

Snoopadoop · 03/02/2016 14:25

Hmmm I can't see why you are shocked.

I personally would rather my child was not exposed to religion in any way. I'd rather no school trips to places of worship took place, be they mosques, churches, synagogues etc... I would rather they taught my child that there was no such thing as a god or gods. Unfortunately they're not going to do that and in this circumstance I would ask my child if they wanted to go. If they said they didn't I would inform the teacher they weren't going.

I'm an atheist who has never set foot in a mosque, I'm still happy for Muslims to practice their religion and respectful of their beliefs (however barmy I believe them to be). I feel the same about all religious belief. I don't understand it, I could never believe in it but if you want to well go ahead, knock yourself out. I don't need a school trip to a mosque to be a better and/or more moral and respectful person, neither does my child.

RedToothBrush · 03/02/2016 14:30

You can not teach your children nor protect them from certain things Laguna. They will only learn certain things with the way you regard religion. They won't fully understand why it has driven your family apart or screwed up your DH's childhood. They will only know that it has and your version of the truth. They won't understand some of the stuff behind that, because of your own prejudices. To truly make things 'better' for the future they do need their own perspectives and the opportunity to see things apart from the family narrative and to be given the chance to make up their own minds.

Otherwise, they will have their own bigotry and prejudices.

It is GOOD to be constantly challenged and to face things you are uncomfortable with. You can not do this, if your view of the world is done by avoiding certain things or by someone removing all contact with those things.

LagunaBubbles · 03/02/2016 14:31

I'm an atheist who has never set foot in a mosque, I'm still happy for Muslims to practice their religion and respectful of their beliefs (however barmy I believe them to be). I feel the same about all religious belief. I don't understand it, I could never believe in it but if you want to well go ahead, knock yourself out. I don't need a school trip to a mosque to be a better and/or more moral and respectful person, neither does my child

My thoughts exactly. Except according to some here that makes us racist bigoted idiots.

vintagefiend · 03/02/2016 14:32

(that's a really silly point about ancient greece)

anyway I believe in equality: all religions are ludicrous.

Topseyt · 03/02/2016 14:35

I wouldn't bother being flabbergasted by it. It is their choice.

Perhaps the kids didn't even want to go.

Mine did go on a couple of mosque trips. I must say though that they weren't overly enthusiastic about the trip when it came up and found it uninspiring as an idea.

EponasWildDaughter · 03/02/2016 14:36

I imagine that at the moment a fairly large percentage of the numbers of parents refusing to let their children visit a mosque is a direct result of currant affairs.

Islam is not getting a good press right now. From terrorism to sexism.

AppleSetsSail · 03/02/2016 14:36

I'm not suggesting you're a racist Laguna (although I've rather charitably assumed that your views are consistent across all religious institutions). Rather, I'm suggesting that you are essentially locking your children out of any kind of 'culturally elite' paths. They're hardly going to wind up reading Latin or History at university, are they?

Sorry, I realise that's probably a bitchy thing to say but I don't now how else to put it.

charliethebear · 03/02/2016 14:39

I'm pretty certain no one has said Islam is the only sexist religion and I don't understand why showing sexist passages from the bible is a valid argument against not sending your children to mosques because of the very obvious ways they treat men and women differently? Just because Christianity is sexist too doesn't mean we should send our children to mosques?
I personally would have a problem with my child being told they have to go through different door because of their sex. And visiting a place that does this without a conversation about how its wrong which wont happen in a school setting.
Not visiting mosques, churches or synagogues doesn't mean you cant learn about religion and it doesn't make you ignorant. Children can be taught about religion, meet religious people etc. Without going on a school trip to a place of worship.

LagunaBubbles · 03/02/2016 14:39

They won't understand some of the stuff behind that, because of your own prejudices

And what exactly do you think Im prejudiced against? My children (and eldest is 22) are happy and have healthy relationships and not afraid to express their opinions, they have questioning minds....

They will only know that it has and your version of the truth

They've always had the chance to "make up their own minds", not just based on what me and DH have actually said (which I assume is what you meant by my "version" of the truth Hmm but what they have witnessed, they have got eyes, ears and funnily enough minds of their own.....

You dont know them or me...how you can possibly claim they have their own "bigotry and prejudices" just because Ive raised them to believe men and women are equal is completely laughable. You really dont get it do you? Not everyone who disagrees with Islam is prejudiced.

Purplepicnic · 03/02/2016 14:40

I personally would rather my child was not exposed to religion in any way.

That's fair enough but they're not going to get through life not being exposed to it are they? Anything from Christmas to history lessons to passing St Paul's Cathedral to seeing a terrorist attack on the news is going to expose them to it.

Better they understand it exists, what the different ones are and what they believe and why it causes problems sometimes. A visit to any religious establishment, including a mosque, is part of that understanding and I think they're lucky to have it. I've never been in a mosque.

Snoopadoop · 03/02/2016 14:43

*Rather, I'm suggesting that you are essentially locking your children out of any kind of 'culturally elite' paths. They're hardly going to wind up reading Latin or History at university, are they?

Sorry, I realise that's probably a bitchy thing to say but I don't now how else to put it.*

Maybe they won't wind up studying Latin or history. I'm not sure what your point is (admittedly addressed to Laguna rather than me).

LagunaBubbles · 03/02/2016 14:43

They're hardly going to wind up reading Latin or History at university, are they? Sorry, I realise that's probably a bitchy thing to say but I don't now how else to put it.

Yes it is. Ok is "reading Latin or History at University" the new be all and end all achievement in life? Confused.
(and no Im not saying you were suggesting Im racist, others have said that).

LagunaBubbles · 03/02/2016 14:44

(that's a really silly point about ancient greece)

Yeh thats why I ignored it vintage! Grin

Sosodizzy · 03/02/2016 14:45

Charlie, that was in response to another poster.

Can I ask, do those who find mosques sexist, think the same of single sex schools? Do you feel as strongly about educational establishments only allowing a certain gender through their doors?

Snoopadoop · 03/02/2016 14:47

That's fair enough but they're not going to get through life not being exposed to it are they? Anything from Christmas to history lessons to passing St Paul's Cathedral to seeing a terrorist attack on the news is going to expose them to it.

Of course theyre going to be exposed to religion. Like I said. If rather they didn't, I know the reality is impossible. But I don't see how going to a religious establishment is necessary as part of being a good, well rounded, moral, respectful, educated person.

EmbroideryQueen · 03/02/2016 14:50

YABU without knowing the reasons, clearly.

EponasWildDaughter · 03/02/2016 14:51

do those who find mosques sexist, think the same of single sex schools?

No.

A mosque isn't a single sex establishment. It's a place where the sexes are treated differently beneath one roof.

Snoopadoop · 03/02/2016 14:52

I don't need to go to an abattoir to understand the process of getting meat on my table, and to respect the animal I am eating. I don't need to go to the Houses of Parliament to understand and respect our legal system. I don't need to visit a prison to know I don't want to wind up in one and instead live a moral and legal life. All in the same way I don't need to go to the religious establishment to be aware of and tolerant of people with religion.

I would say the religious establishment to me is the least important place to visit than all of the above because God does not exist.

Having said that. If my child wanted to go, of course they could. If they didn't want to, I would respect that equally and inform the teacher he wasn't going.

LagunaBubbles · 03/02/2016 14:53

Better they understand it exists, what the different ones are and what they believe and why it causes problems sometimes. A visit to any religious establishment, including a mosque, is part of that understanding

Purple I agree with the first part, where we obviously disagree is whether a visit to a Mosque is essential for this, which I dont think it is.

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