World Hijab Day

[Marzipanface]

AIBU to feel uncomfortable with this day and also really irritated at the lack of discussion over this event from a feminist perspective. There seems to be a wholesale silence from the Feminist blogs and papers I subscribe to, and I can't find any discussion on here. No-one wants to talk to about it.

Just that really.

Someone I know who lived in Qatar for a while described it as "a shopping mall in a sandpit" (!)

Although I think that that has more to do with the fact that it is a petrostate than the fact that it is Muslim.

The rentier economies of the Middle East have resulted in populations who have effectively sold their political, cultural and artistic freedom in exchange for air conditioned shopping malls and secure, easy government jobs.

Bottleofbeer, very profound post about the burka lady.

young exactly. I commented up thread about how business meetings work when women are fully veiled. Do they wear name badges? How does anyone know who anyone is?

Of course I didn't receive a response.

Because these women don't attend business meetings, do they?

While the Koran is the word of god I do know muslims who though they will not dismiss the Koran as being wrong in any way they will view it as of its time, then of course other muslims will say they are not real muslims but many will be at peace with how they live and question who are they to judge

what I get very frustrated with is the ultra conservative islam that is being allowed to grow in this country unchallenged. why are we even discussing if niqabs can be banned in schools and colleges when they are band in many muslim countries in school and colleges/universities

as I said earlier I do not have much of an opinion on hijabs unless young girls are wearing them but I do niqabs and I would like to see a day when those women who have a choice to wear a niqab go without wearing it to show support for those women who have no choice as the niqan is designed to make you invisible to society how can this be acceptable any longer

ottila I said that up thread, The sheer money is astounding around Harrods, and I have never seen more fully veiled women but also very glam looking ladies with stunning head scarves.

I shall never look at a napkin the same way again. They're not something I'd ever associated with rebellion before.

young and rooner
I agree that Islam is far more successful in subjugating women than Christianity. That can't be in any doubt whatever.
After all there are now female bishops in the Anglican church, which is wonderful. Where are the female imams?

But please note that I was referring to "fundamental Christian sects", which are apparently growing in the US. This illustrates that men will use religion as an excuse for subjugation, multiple wives etc, when they can get away with it.

That's certainly true - there are probably some vile specimens wondering why only Islamic fundamentalists get to subjugate their women and wanting to get in on the act...there is plenty of justification for mistreatment of women in the Bible too.

It's very interesting though. My DSis was married in the Church of England and promised to "obey" her husband. Of course this was her choice, but it wasn't a choice she would have in the church until very recently. At my Islamic wedding I was not required to promise to "obey" but I was told that I had to "keep my beauty for my husband". Which could mean anything from wearing a burka at all times to not getting naked with any other men...

I am not sure one is worse than the other which is why the debate is so interesting. To me, both examples just make me hugely grateful to live in secular democracy where I can say "balls" to all of it!

The C of E largely abolished the obey vow unless someone wants it over 60 y ears ago actually.
Fundamentalist Christianity in its time with burnings, attempts to take meccah etc in their day were no worse than Islam today. it is just Islam is behind us. It will catch up. Most people are inherently good and will reject the bad. The jews are a bit ahead - a good few Jewish female rabbis in the non orthodox church now. Catholics - my mother gave out communion in place of priests as a eucharistic minister but it's still pretty sexist in that church - we cannot have a woman pope or priest yet.

On business meetings a lawyer I know from the middle east was told she could not take charge of the major signature meeting of a deal she was instrumental of to be signed in Saudi. She moved the whole thing and all 20 people had to fly to Switzerland as she was not prepared not to be allowed to continuing being in charge of her deal and she was not prepared to cover up. Good for her. A client of mine (Saudi) proudly showed me their corporate brochuer which featured a picture of every employed - about 200 of them from cleaners to senior directors. 100% were male. We are wiped from the face of achievement in some cultures. I am happy about how women entrepreneurs are doing in China actually and some Indian women are doing well in business although both countries kill countless baby girls every year before birth to such an extent there is a shortage of women to marry.

Most revolutions occur because of poverty or mistreatment. A lot of the trouble in the middle east is purely because one group has favoured its own - shia or sunni and not enough money or jobs.

That's brilliant that the lawyer moved the whole meeting to Switzerland rather than let some man do it. Has made me smile. Well done that woman.

I am not sure that Islam will catch up Deo - I am no expert, but I believe the idea of a reformation of Islam or any kind of enlightenment is alien to its ideology, which requires submission to the Koran, as is the desirability of separation between church and state. There are undoubtedly Muslims within more advanced democratic societies who see the real need for less dogma and theocracy (in fact, I am one), but in much of the Middle East and Africa the tide is actually turning the other way.

That's brilliant that the lawyer moved the whole meeting to Switzerland
Yes and no. She wasn't permitted to do the work in Saudi and had to move the meeting elsewhere. So the Saudis maintained their ban. I don't call that a victory for women.

I am more optimistic. I think just the effect of seeing other ways of living and impact of freedom to search the internet makes most people less radical. It is why the small fundamentalist US group I mention (FLDS) ban TV, internet and smart phones or tried to do so. Once you get phone signal (or going back hundreds of years Caxton's printing press or in soviet russia photo copiers) it gets very hard to stop people see things out there. Those North Koreans who live very close to China often have smart phones these days which obviously helps them understand the truth.

I think the female lawyer was from somewhere like Morocoo or Algeria. The last Saudis I met (who to their credit did use me as their lawyer) had our meeting at just about the nicest London hotel and quite liked the trip over, but certainly the more people see that women can have careers whilst bringing up their children in the same way that working fathers do the better.

I see the Jewish changes in the UK as how Islam will go - you will end up with a very few isolated fundamentalist groups like the Hassidim in Stamford hill but mostly people will integrate or at least adopt Western names, values, freedoms. It is how it works. The only blip with this is when a teenager rebels by being fundamentalist because he thinks he'll get girls or wants to annoy his or her parents or is taken in my radical ideas.

I certainly accept that there has been a spread of more fundamentalist Islam in the middle east - I am old enough to remember Iran before the Shah and Aghanistan where girls did not cover heads and went to university more freely than now. However I still see all that as fairly temporary and that things will be fine.

Sallyingforth - Where are the female imams?

Wouldn't that be like turkeys voting for Christmas?

Sallying

It's not a victory for women no. But it is a little act of defiance and therefore worth applauding.

venus Every little helps, as they say. It was certainly better than letting a man take over. But it meant the Saudi ban was seen to be upheld.

cherub The acceptance of female Anglican priests and eventually bishops was the result of a long campaign within the church by women and men to change ancient entrenched attitudes.
I cannot envisage any similar move by Muslims to give women equal status. But I would be very glad to be proved wrong by any of the contributors to this thread. That's an open invitation.

What seriously could she have done, other than that though? These attitudes won't change overnight. They weren't going to back down. At least she did something.

Is there any branch of Islam that gives women an official role, even before woman vicars there were deacons, quakers had women as equals centuries ago. Is there any hint that something like this could happen in Islam?

I agree with Younggirl.

I worry that Islam is turning more closed and stricter rather than more moderate. I have friends from Malaysia who feel it is turning more hardline from when they were children. Also friends in Turkey who worry that Islamists are gaining more power than before.

I was in Turkey last year and saw more hijabs and women wearing long clothing than I have seen before and I've been going for over 25 years. These were more middle class women, where as before it was more uneducated, poorer villagers who wore loose scarves on their hair.

As has been said, more people (especially young) in the UK are wearing more Islamic clothing and turning to a deeper practising of Islam than many of their parents did.

Ooh young come to London. We don't make you wear tableware unless you really really want to.

I was working on a banking product a few years back which meant that we needed to discuss certain aspects with Muslim theologians/academics.

We had a gang of them who used to come for meetings. So we had a cross section of 'flavours' and nationalities/backgrounds.

We didn't need to cover, wear anything special more/less and, heavens above, they shook our hands, accepted cups of tea from us (unlike some from a different religion), and discussed the work with us regardless of gender.

Now if they all could interact without bias, racism and religionism (I know that's not a real word), not did they get driven to manic heights of lust, then why are some people hell bent on 'thou shalt cover up woman, and white wimmin are slaaaaags' attitude?

If you contrast my requirements for clothing and dress which I imposed on the Saudi clients in their full robes at the London hotel (none) with my arrival on a different business trip to Iran having to change before being allowed through on to even Kish island (which is a relatively liberal bit) in a women's only section into a sort of brown cloth dressing gown type thing and head covering ) it was provided by my hosts. I made the very foolish mistake having put this regalia on within 2 minutes of emerging with the ridiculous bits of cloth over my business suit of shaking hands with my host (they wouldn't of course allow touching of the unclean hands of a mere woman......)

All interesting stuff and most people I meet everywhere in the world and good, interesting and interesting. I don't think we need to despair but I do think we need to fight against sexism world wide.

I do though feel that a lot of Sharia law is like the stuff Jesus was so cross about within then Judaeism - pointless thousands of rules made by man to make life complex when you really just need to be kind to others and love one another. Not much more than that really has to matter in Islam, Christianity, Judaeism or atheism for that matter.

I am reminded of a red dwarf episide when they get zapped into the future to find that Cat has evolved into whole species who based their beliefs around a laundry list and fast food hats.

I am not sure that Islam will catch up Deo - I am no expert, but I believe the idea of a reformation of Islam or any kind of enlightenment is alien to its ideology, which requires submission to the Koran, as is the desirability of separation between church and state

I agree with you.

There are voices out there calling for and practicing - men and women praying together, gays and lesbians allowed in the Mosque as well as apostates.

I hope this progressive liberal interpretation of the faith continues and also just the general loosening of faith ties, family pressue etc...

I mean it wasn't that long ago that it was UBER sexist here....look at Jimmy Savle, Benny hill et all....people say "oh it was a different time then" well it wasn't long ago. Princess Diana being checked for being a virgin

It seems to me that all of the of pro-headscarf wearing posters are writing from an educated and independent woman's view point. Yes, in the West, it is our choice to bare our legs, arms, head (or even boobs!) wear make up or heels, cover up from head to toe, or any combination of these. I have seen many a hijab-wearing woman with full make up, heels, jewellery and colourful clothing...so, over here, wearing a headscarf doesn't necessarily equate to being invisible to men, or hiding their identity!

We are lucky enough to be allowed to learn about other religions and cultures, we have a right to education, higher education, a career, contraception, health care etc. My concern is for those woman and girls who are forced to cover up, here or abroad.

From what I have read (Reading Lolita in Tehran, and I am Malala are worth reading), women in most Muslim countries used to be able to wear pretty much what they wanted, although more modest/traditional than the West, but are now being forced to cover up, abstain from dancing and singing and are being denied an education and a career and are treated as second class citizens. As a mother of two daughters, that's what I object to.

I think that is why I have little optimism. Because it's getting far worse generally for these women

Aaaaaaagggggggghhhhhhhh.

Sorry. That's as coherent as I get on this issue.

I really love your story of the napkins on your heads though, YoungGirl. Brilliant. But so fucked up that it's necessary.