World Hijab Day

[Marzipanface]

AIBU to feel uncomfortable with this day and also really irritated at the lack of discussion over this event from a feminist perspective. There seems to be a wholesale silence from the Feminist blogs and papers I subscribe to, and I can't find any discussion on here. No-one wants to talk to about it.

Just that really.

January, thank you for your post. I am so so proud to be British. It gives me a certain confidence. My muslim identity is also something that lets me stand tall. Without my islamic identity, the pakistani culture would make me subservient to men and the Western culture would make me desire to chase material wealth, yearn to be body beautiful and to be acknowledged by men.

I am not saying that this is what all of pakistani culture and british culture is about, but these elements in both cultures, I find very oppressive in different ways. My muslim identity allows me to turn away from what I dislike and see as oppressive cultural practices of East and West and it allows me to carve an identity of my own, to declare what is important to me and to fight against societal expectations on both sides which I do not want to subjugate to.

Not for a single moment do I desire that womens rights in the UK should be eroded. I want those rights protected. I would join that fight. I would fight for the rights of women to be protected in the Uk and would love for women worlwide to enjoy my freedoMs too. I do not ask that they should have my freedoms as long as they wear a hijab or follow Islam. No, every woman should have choices regardless. Some choices I would not regard as wise choices, but as long as it is their choice, then that is what matters.

I also realise that not evey woman will share my views. I dont want everyone to conform to my way, but I certainly wish that people would stop seeing me as symbol for oppression because they have no idea how much oppression I and many other hijab wearers have fought to gain that freedom to wear the hijab.

I am just as staunchly against any woman being made to wear a hijab too. If I have the freedom to choose my hijab, the next woman also has the freedom to choose not to wear it. My hijab is not a symbol that I want everyone to be like me. It is a part of my religion and my religion is what has empowered me and given me the abilityto fight against all the expectations piled on me. And those around me who don't like it, feel frustrated that they cannot control me.

Sorry, that was long.

and the Western culture would make me desire to chase material wealth, yearn to be body beautiful and to be acknowledged by men

I don't even know where to start with that

Hiphopopotamus, similarly many will be annoyed my comment that pakistani culture asks for subservience to men. These were both generalisations, not all of the culture, just aspects. To say that these aspects dont exist, is frankly untrue. i didnt say these were everything there is to the cultures, I said these parts i dislike. There is certainly a lot of Pakistani culture which is truly wonderful too.

I can see why people are against the hijab, and from and outsiders perspective looking in they perceive it as everything you mention january. We view events through our own socio/ethno/geographical lens, therefore different people project/perceive events with differing constructs.

The struggles that the Church imposed in the West however are different from a head covering. People however associate the two. Women in Islam were given the right to vote, to earn, to keep their name, to inherit property etc 1400 years ago. That was nothing to do with the Suffragettes.

For many British women, seeing a woman covered reminds us how fragile and recent those rights are. Can you see why we would resist applauding something that we see as sexually divisive after the battle for equality that was fought for us?

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I don't think anyone is expecting applause? I do not feel that I need to justify myself nor do I wish to impose my views on anyone. I do not however feel that anyone has the right to verbally abuse/attack me; if someone feels that I am oppressed/subjugated etc and they tell me this I have no problem telling them otherwise.

I would respectfully ask you to perhaps look past what you perceive to be condescending sneers, Islamophobic comments, etc and think about what I wrote in the first paragraph.

The thing is I don't feel I need to analyse why a person is verbally abusing/attacking me. It isn't my problem, nor do I think I need to respect this. Discussion/dialogue; certainly, but shouting derogatory comments across the street, no. I also don't appreciate telling me how I should feel. These things are not perceived, they are very much a real and often common occurrence. It is my understanding that this is what the WHD is all about?

Sorry, didn't mean for that to be so long. Interesting discussion!

Some British women might have a choice but everyone knows that others have less freedom to choose

All this talk of choice and freedom reminds me of The Handmaid's Tale, where women had "freedom from" rather than "freedom to". I find it very depressing.

Women in Islam were given the right to vote, to earn, to keep their name, to inherit property etc 1400 years ago. That was nothing to do with the Suffragettes.

And yet... Saudi women were only granted the right to vote in December LAST YEAR.

Yes, that sickens me (and a lot of muslims) two. They call themselves an Islamic country but a lot of their rules are anything but.

The Handmaid's Tale was inspired partly by Atwood visiting a fundamentalist Islamic country. If you read it in the light of the Taliban in Afghanistan you will see how eerily prescient it was.

yankeecandle4 your long post is so good, thanks

Soso thanks for your considered post.

This Not for a single moment do I desire that womens rights in the UK should be eroded. I want those rights protected. I would join that fight. I would fight for the rights of women to be protected in the Uk and would love for women worlwide to enjoy my freedoMs too actually brought a tear to my eye. Thank you.

This bit: and the Western culture would make me desire to chase material wealth, yearn to be body beautiful and to be acknowledged by men not so much and shows, perhaps, that there can be insulting prejudice on both sides

Sorry posted too soon!

Yankee I abhor the idea of anyone being verbally abused. I deliberately used language like 'perceived' to make the point that there is misunderstanding everywhere.

In the same way that women in another thread have reported verbal abuse by men from other cultures because of the way they were dressed. And the comments, which I assume you reject, from the Imam after Cologne blaming the women for skimpy clothing and perfume causing them to be sexually attacked.

I think you made valid points regarding the Church and I agree that it imposes restrictions on women, particularly the Catholic Church.

Also I used 'applaud' in a figurative sense if approval, not literal clapping. I apologise for any confusion.

I don't ask anyone to analyse attacks, but I have observed many many British people, especially on this site, asking questions and trying to analyse why women behave in certain ways according to their religion that are so at odds with the British freedoms we have now. I love to see that curiosity go both ways as it does here.

I think this two way debate is wonderful. I know I am lucky having many friends of differing nationalities and faiths and we debate and argue constantly. We know, in the end, we are all delightful people and that's always my starting point until proven otherwise.

Sorry also long post! Tea and cakes and crisis and wine and everything for us all.

January,

Can you also see how it is themisunderstandings that breed resentment. There is more good than bad in the Western society. Similarly,there is more good than bad in Eastern society. What I deem bad, may not be viewed as a bad thing by others and vice versa.

Sododizzy

Your story sounds similar to my friend from a Pakistani background. She felt that actually studying islam gave her the confidence to break free from her cultural background where she was expected to put up with an unhappy and abusive marriage, do as she was told etc and submit for being the woman. The only one to stand up for her was an imam, who told her family that their pressure and demands was actually unislamic. For her, she feels that Islam gave her power and freedom.

Knowing her actually made me wary and less tolerant of islam and her culture -though, i can see that some interpretations could be positive to communities if they could leave their cultural baggage behind. I really enjoyed hearing her take on islam and what it meant to her. I just feel, that culture and islam are too intertwined like chicken and egg.

Soso I agree and, despite covering myself which offended all my feminist principles, I made some good friends in the many years I spent at school and working in Islamic countries.

It also strikes me that it would never have occurred to my to expect that my cultural way of dress (as a schoolgirl, shorts and bare feet) should be accommodated as I was in no doubt that bare feet were an insult.

Here, the sexual revolution liberated women's clothing too, from corsets and suits and gloves and hats and so we have an inherited reaction to restrictive clothing .

Finally () may I make a linguistic observation.

I worked in advertising in the Middle East for many years. We worked on a US project which needed to use the word 'freedom.'

My translator, a lugubrious gentleman from Egypt, raised an eyebrow and asked my to call the client to change the slogan since the nearest translation of the word he could use directly translated as 'sexual licentiousness'

I try to bear that in mind travelling in certain countries.

the Western culture would make me desire to chase material wealth, yearn to be body beautiful and to be acknowledged by men

How very goady. You know you can be a non-Muslim Western woman and not be obsessed with wealth, being body beautiful or being acknowledged by men ? What a gross, simplistic and prejudiced view of Western women. It seems to me that Muslim women who cover up are more likely to be obsessed with what men think about them than most Western women who don't think about mens opinion of whether they are chaste 24/7. You're the ones covering up because you think men only acknowledge you as sexual objects.

Come on, evil, cut Soso some slack. She's trying to have a two-way discussion here and I don't think she's trying to be goady. She's said that there is more good than bad in western society - how about asking her what she thinks the good bits are?

Soso, are you saying that Western culture is all about wealth and appearances and sexuality, or are you saying that you're worried it could have that influence on you?

Incidentally, I went to a concert at the weekend, Mozart's Requiem. There were a lot of muslim women in the audience, so I can only suppose they were finding something to value in western culture.

No, the English don't like materialism. Watch the series of programmes on class by Grayson Perry. Showy cars and gold are very non U in the UK. It is not our thing. Never has been and never will be and we earn our own money so we don't have a value in sexual allure to men. Men are just as lucky to have us as vice versa amongst those of us who are straight not lesbian.

Every covered head is offensive to many feminists but we are not going to ban it in the UK as we are tolerant.

However we retain the freedom to say it's wrong. If head covering is so great make men do it and not women. See how they like.

I think you made valid points regarding the Church and I agree that it imposes restrictions on women, particularly the Catholic Church

In Ireland perhaps or pockets of Ireland...

But In our large catholic family no one gives too hoots or knows who still goes to church and who doesn't, lots of very lapsed cousins, the aunts and uncles wouldn't have a clue and neither I about them or any other cousins.

No shame, no death threats, absolutely no clue as to the religion of who is marrying who, no one would question the religion of anyone who any one is dating.. no arranged marriages etc.

Not saying every single Muslim family, does have shame, death threats, arranged marriages, but I do know of two girls, one who had to run away from her family to be with the man she loved ( white atheist) she couldn't go home, had to randomly call home to speak to her mum etc. The other poor girl was so sweet but so sad, and she was married off to someone from Pakistan.

It seems to me there are layers upon layers of rules and restrictions...and rules really.

i just welcome the day, anyone can easily and without any come back - or death threats or shame, leave Islam, because only when they can openly leave it - without a second thought can they then actually follow it and choose to be a believer.

deo I think uk has become materialistic, but so what. Go to Harrods in the summer, you will see biggest displays of materialism ever in the money on show round there, with all the arabs bringing their cars in and the ladies splashing lots of cash in harrods!

Of course a lot of English like materialism, what a strange thing to say. A lot of Muslims like I too even if Christianity and Islam tends to poach otherwise.

And I agree about the Catholic Church. No equality for women in the church, no contraception and no abortion. You might choose not to follow it but that is still what it asks.

Of course prejudices/stereotypes work both ways, which is what I think Soso was trying to illustrate. A friend of mine who went to volunteer in one of the Greek islands during the initial refugee crisis said locals were shocked that she wasn't having sex with every Tom, Dick and Harry; because apparently that is what British women do

I also love the "Not saying all muslims are bad but I know two...."

Amouse shame, shunning, death threats exist in all cultures, sadly sometimes under the guise of religion. I know of a few people who have converted from islam to another religion, strangely they are still alive. I was living in the ME for several years and personally heard of two "honour" killings; both were christian families. IIRC the last reported honour killing in the UK was a Sikh family.

Back to my original point, I don't think any one is being unreasonable to question/dislike the hijab or participate in WHD, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Bambam, yes it is a shame that eastern culture and islam seem intertwined, but upon close inspection, one realises how far some cultural aspects are from Islam.

January, the linguistic translations are something I bear in mind as I too have made the mistake of translating directly and and arriving at a completely different meaning!

Evil cherub, I never said you couldn't! You can also be a non-submissive Pakistani career woman who will not be tied to the kitchen sink. I didnt see you objecting to my statement about Pakistani culture though!

You're the ones covering up because you think men only acknowledge you as sexual objects.

Where have I said that I cover up because men only acknowledge me as a sexual object? What a gross, simplistic and prejudiced view of muslim women! Think about it evil.

Lumela, there is so much more to the western culture than just wealth, appearance and sexuality. In the UK, there is free education, free health care, basically more equality. There is a system in place which in principle is for everyone. There is opportunity. Yes, there are flaws in the system and much work to be done, but that is another discussion.

Deogratias, as for materialism, of course it is here in UK. What do you think the wannabe WAG thing is all about. Again, MTV is also full of it. Some years ago, there was a survey and school girls said they aspired to be jordan (katie Price) as she has become very rich using her body. I think it is sad. We can do better than this for our girls.

The down side (wrt this discussion) as I see it is that every where a young girl turns, she is being bombarded with messages of the size her bum should be, the size her boobs should be, every part of her body is under scrutiny and you have to achieve that ideal or else you are not perfect. Super models, size zero ideals, the latest diet, the latest must-have cosmetics, shoes, clothes, T-shirts with slogans sexualising young girls are everywhere. Or if they are not sexualising, they say something along the lines of 'wannabe WAG'.
There is massive pressure on young girls to be a certain way and then to enjoy being this way. Look at entertainment on TV. MTV, Have you ever listened to some of one direction lyrics? Their target market is very young girls. Magazines which are targetted at older girls are full of 'how to please your guy in 10 ways' kind of rubbish. This is what worries me a lot. The whole thing is about being perceived of being worthy enough by a man.

Yes prejudices and stereotypes and misinformation arent limited to east against west, or west against east. My Aussie friend said that in Australia they think that on most nights the English binge drink and on a weekend English girls go and binge drink and end up having sex in an alley way somewhere then vomit and be taken to a&e!

Soso Perhaps you could respond to an alternative view point and some questions from a fellow British Pakistani

You state:
My muslim identity is also something that lets me stand tall. Without my islamic identity, the pakistani culture would make me subservient to men

The populace of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan is 97% muslim. Islam came to the Indus Valley as early as the 8th Century. Why do you think that Pakistani culture has not been heavily influenced, shaped and imbued by some 1300 years of Islamic practice ?

Pakistan's Penal Code is a mixture of Islamic & English Common Law. When Sharia aspects were bolstered through the Hudood Ordinance in the 70's & 80's and more recently in KPK & FATA, women's rights took a severe downturn. In fact look at any society that has gone through Islamification and women's rights have eroded and yet you say that Islam protects and supports you in contravention of the prevailing culture ?

Pakistans Council of Islamic Ideology (CII), which advise the government on the compatibility of laws with Islam, have recently managed to stop the Bill aiming to protect girls from being married off as soon as they reach puberty, which can be as young as 9.
Pakistan bill aiming to ban child marriages shot down as 'anti-Islamic' and 'blasphemous

Take a look at the CII web page: cii.gov.pk where the home page asserts their latest ruling on women's right to divorce: Dissolution of marriage by courts without the consent of husband on the basis of ’Khula’ is repugnant to the injunctions of Islam Click on it for the full Urdu preamble.

Unsurprisingly Sharia courts in the UK take the same stance Sharia courts in Britain lock women into 'marital captivity', study says

From divorce, to custody, to unequal inheritance, to the worthiness and weight of women testimony, to sanctioning domestic violence, to numerous other inequities, Islam is the underpinning reason for justification for these behaviours.

Coming back to the Hijab, how do you not see that normalising this becomes yet another thing with which to control and beat (metaphorically or physically) girls and women with ? It becomes another thing with which Ghar ki Izzat (family honour) becomes dependent on.

I'm lucky and it sounds like you and the other muslim women posting here are too, as we don't have overly bearing families and hence you/we can make that choice of freely wearing it or not. But I am acutely aware that globally and in the UK, increasingly women are not being given a choice and the hijab has become the de facto dress of proper muslim women.

Read also what this Pakistani journalist says Hijab, the illusion of choice

At a time when the Pakistani Taliban are making serious inroads into taking over whole parts of the country, why do wish to support the uniform of such theocratic fascists who gain moral support and use Western women's adoption of hijab in their propaganda war.

And the Taliban aren't the only one's calling for enforced veiling Jamaat-e-Islami (JI) demanded that hijab should be made compulsory in the Constitution of Pakistan to make it an obligatory element of life for all women

Your free choice is leading to other women becoming caged. In my view that is nothing to be supportive or celebratory about and I am profoundly disturbed that so many of my Pakistani compatriots have made such a choice having had the good fortune to come to a country where women's full and equal rights are enshrined in law and largely respected and accorded in society. The society so unlike the misogynistic one their parents and grandparents left behind.

From this in the 70's:
Pakistani feminists burning their dupattas (scarf draped around the neck to conceal the bust outline) in protest at the Islamification laws being brought in at that time (which resulted in the jailing of rape victims on grounds of fornication and also the requirement to produce 4 male witnesses to the crime to secure any conviction)

To this in 2015:
Freely covered and calling for all others to have veiling imposed on them.

Islam, the most regressive and anti-intellectual ideology ever devised by man.

So it's the West which is materialistic eh? Tell that to my husband's colleague who flies business class to Hajj every single year with his extended family of about 50 staying in 5 star hotels. Hajj is all about humility right? Arf.

The same man "respectfully insists" that I wear hijab when visiting his house and remain in the kitchen with the women while the men (including DH) chat/pray etc. His job? He is a breast cancer specialist in the NHS. I find that all kinds of wrong.

Amazingly his cultural tolerance only goes one way as he refused to attend our house party when we served alcohol and had a hog roast. Yes, I was being goady but it's amazing how intolerant some people are - mostly those who demand tolerance of their medieval barbaric misogynistic religion.

Mistress last sentence in right, not least because discussion and debate around the Koran and the hadiths is not permitted or even deemed appropriate - this is Allah's word and Muslims shouldn't argue.

Anyone who is "liberated" by a religion which states (amongst other gems) that a woman's evidence is worth less than a man's, that 4 men must corroborate a rape and that 4 wives is perfectly fine as long as you are "fair" probably needs to get out more.