World Hijab Day

[Marzipanface]

AIBU to feel uncomfortable with this day and also really irritated at the lack of discussion over this event from a feminist perspective. There seems to be a wholesale silence from the Feminist blogs and papers I subscribe to, and I can't find any discussion on here. No-one wants to talk to about it.

Just that really.

Yes I'd say the west is quite materialistic and your husband's colleague obviously reperesents all Muslims. Is this a thread where we can only say negative things about Muslims and they just have to shut up.

Regarding your experience, that would have pissed me off too and I often agree with much of what Mistress Mia says but I do feel their is an aggressive undercurrent on this thread when Muslim women are talking.

Aimed at the Muslim women talking.

Young girl if you dislike the way your husbands colleague lives his life why do you accept his hospitality, he sounds like a generous man who supports his wider family and does a vital job that saves the lives of women of all backgrounds. I don't think he is being hypocritical not wanting to go to a party which a whole roasting pig is on display, doesn't mean you shouldn't have this at your party but my non muslim vegetarian daughter really doesn't like to see whole animals beginning roasted and would probably politely decline too!

MistressMia

The pictures you posted. The first one, burning clothing, they are protesting against a change in the law that would disadvantage women, is that right?

The second group are protesting because they want to impose a restriction on other women, forcing them to cover up?

Sorry about my ignorance, I just can't quite believe this is the direction we're moving in.

Just came across this interesting snippet in Janice Turner's column in the Times today:

"A key aspect of her apostasy for her was deciding to remove the hijab she'd been made to wear since she was eight years old. (Parents impose it on girls as young as four so they get used to it and won't balk at having to wear it at puberty.) Male non-believers can muddle by largely unnoticed. But once a girl has started wearing a headscarf, baring her head becomes a public declaration, provoking harsh judgment, family rage, and even violence. If we support the right of Muslim girls to wear hijab, we should equally support those making the far tougher decision to take it off."

Bambambini - interesting comment. I am Muslim and so is DH. So clearly my husband's colleague does not represent all Muslims eh?

I still say my husband's colleague can fuck off with his hospitality if it involves leaving me in the kitchen with the "staff" by virtue of my gender.

My Jewish friends had no problem with the hog roast other than not eating it. We live in the country where that is actually quite a traditional spread.

i find the photos posted above so incredibly depressing.

There was a similar posting recently which compared 1970s Pakistan and Ahganistan to 2015.

That Muslim women support this overall trend is absolutely astounding.

Bambambini I do feel their is an aggressive undercurrent on this thread when Muslim women are talking.

Unless a poster has declared that they're Muslim, we don't actually know who's talking in terms of race, religion, ethnicity, sex etc. I've read the whole thread and seen very little aggression. In fact, this is one of the most interesting - and calm - discussions I've ever read on Mumsnet. I've particularly enjoyed MistressMia's most recent posts and thinks she makes some excellent points that sum up the concerns that many people have about the adoption of hijab being used as a 'marketing tool' by fundamentalists.

I see more materialism in the arab world actually - look at the Saudis in London and in their own home state. Most atheists and religious people know that the route to happiness in life is not material things.

Heads of little girls were never rarely seen covered in most places. When I was in Iran I did notice it and at our local primary school in London they do it too - it is non denominational but with a lot of parents where the wife covers her hair. It then becomes a peer pressure thing too which is why ensuring people mingle with lots of other people of different kinds is a good idea. I was talking to one of my teenagers yesterday about how useful it is to challenge your own views all the time by speaking to different kinds of people (one of the nice things about mumsnet) and how many people psychologically seek out others just like they are as it vindicates them and make them feel right and nice and cosy.

I am reading a new book about FLDS - a fundamentalist polygamous christian sect in the US which has so many similarities to the worst of Islam, the ISIS or Saudi kind including special clothing, early marriage for girls, girls allocated to husbands, property of their fathers including the new rules the writer found introduced fairly recently that the women could not go out without a man accompanying them. It is all about male control and patriarchy -men stretching the supposed word of the supposed God for their own ends.

However I remain hopeful. Many muslim women in the UK know the Koran does not require head covering and there is a big Muslim feminist movement and reformation hopes. All will be well.

fakenamefornow

Yes in the first photo the women are symbolically burning their dupattas, as they are a more moderate form of hijab imposed on girls at puberty to hide their awrah i.e. 'conceal their assets'.

In the second are women from Jamaat e Islaami who on World Hijab day mounted a demo Jamaat wants wearing of 'Hijab' be made compulsory in Pakistan

The women's wing of the party has already held demonstrations in several cities demanding that the wearing of Hijab be made a part of the constitution and compulsory in Pakistan, and tomorrow the party will observe 'Hijab Day'

"Our society has been invaded by western values and women who wear the Hijab or Burqa are targeted as extremists and that is totally unfair," said Durdana Siddiqui, the Deputy General Secretary of the party's women wing.

"We want to send a clear message to the anti-Hijab elements by observing this day that Hijab is not only part of our religious obligation but also a fundamental right and protective shield for women," she said.

The JI plans to distribute free head scarfs to working women in the markets and offices besides setting up stalls to sell Hijabs on subsidised rates and will also hold protests in different cities with the biggest one planned in Karachi.

deogratias I genuinely like your optimism.

I am increasingly despondent about the developments for women. There is a whole thread on the Cologne attacks, the details of which I won't repeat, but the overall sweeping under the carpet of women's basic rights in favour of of any other rights quite honestly scares me.

That there is even a feminist Muslim movement provides a glimmer of hope although I have to be honest and say I struggle to find any compatibility of aims with such a movement.

I drive past a Muslim couple walking home from school daily. That the husband, in summer, wears shots and sandals, and the woman wears a billowing black covering and has to walk several paces behind really affects me every time. It offends my very being.

Deo yes regarding the Arab world. It's the spiritual home of blingy malls and shiny sports cars....

I fear for the future of women in the UK. As I said upthread, the hijab is (in my opinion) the thin end of a very dangerous wedge. The willingness of Western governments to bend over for countries like Saudi, despite appalling human rights abuse and shocking treatment of women, suggests that our freedoms and rights are far more precarious than we may have thought. I remember in the FemSoc at Uni we used to discuss "Postfeminism" and whether we were entering an era of it. The rise of militant Islam in the West now makes that idea pretty laughable and that is also a very depressing thought imo.

Deo regarding materialism in Arab countries, I lived for many years in the gulf.

I am very interested in other cultures, having been brought up in many countries where my parents always insisted we went lo local museums and galleries, concerts, plays and readings. Sometimes they were wonderful, sometimes OK and sometimes squirmingly dire.

Same as anywhere.

In the Gulf, there was a small museum, frequented mainly by middle class English expat ladies, some local buildings that had been preserved when the rapid construction began and very occasionally a (segregated) concert.

I was very depressed by the mile after mile of strip lit shopping malls that provided almost all leisure activity outside (nationality-segregated) sports clubs.

I'm also saddened by the idea that our great British heritage is perceived as 'get lashed, shag, puke, home.'

I know that there is a cultural event of some kind happening close to pretty much everyone at any time in the UK, even, as I offensively suggested, in the sticks . I also know that everyone would be welcome as we should all be concerned at funding cuts and the centralisation of national treasure. this outrage in particular upset me this week.

I think that we all need to start looking past lazy stereotypes and using lazy language and taking knee-jerk offence. Art and culture foster incredible understanding. I encourage everyone on this thread to spend time this weekend exploring something new and different and to challenge stereotypes. I will start a thread on for one day Monday and let's list what we did.

I'm so bored of the same entrenched arguments and static positions. This thread has been a start, let's all try a bit of open mindedness.

Talking about materialism and bling, aren't the Saudis turning Mecca into an Islamic version of Las Vegas to accommodate Hajj pilgrims and make loads of money? I read recently that they have demolished a lot of religious (Islamic) historical sites, even sites which are considered holy and have been around since the time of Mohammed with the Wahhabis excuse being that the sites are idolatrous at the same time the Hajj pilgrimage is now becoming a big money maker for the Saudis, so they are building lots of blingy hotels for pilgrims.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_early_Islamic_heritage_sites_in_Saudi_Arabia

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/the-photos-saudi-arabia-doesnt-want-seen-and-proof-islams-most-holy-relics-are-being-demolished-in-8536968.html

I know the conversation has moved on but Roonerspism's post brought it to mind. We were having a little break in the Lakes a year or two ago, waiting for a train and a little boy comes over and starts fussing my dog, as kids do. His mum and dad were a few feet away and I told them it was fine, the dog is friendly etc...

Well, I told his dad as his mum was in a full burkha. It made me bloody furious, instinctively. She was reduced to a heap of black cloth, even her eyes were covered with a piece of black netting. I could have tried to talk to her too, as I was exchanging polite pleasantries with her husband. I just felt wrong footed, I can't see her eyes, let alone her face. How do you converse with a person when you have literally no cues? Human brains are designed to recognise facial expressions. I've always suffered with ear infections that has never left me with any diagnosed hearing loss but I do find myself needing to see someone's face to understand what they're saying sometimes.

Yes I'm sure I could have, probably should have tried to include her but almost by default you tend not to because she doesn't even resemble a person. She is reduced to a shapeless, cloth form.

It absolutely disgusts me that women wear them. It completely and utterly side lines them.

The rumour here is that the Hajj stampede was caused by the Saudi authorities trying to stop the flow of (presumably) hundreds of thousands of people to permit some dignitaries and royals to jump the queue. The Islamic Kingdom has much to teach the West about the worship of money and materialism.

bottle that's how I felt wearind a veil and abaya. Invisible and mute. Unimportant. Second class. Restricted. And very afraid of the consequences of inadvertently showing something I shouldn't.

MistressMia Thu 04-Feb-16 00:34:05

Wow. Another informative, moving and heart wrenching post from you.

We are so lucky to have a poster who is so informed and writes so beautifully on this forum.

Interesting history in there too but so gut wrenchingly awful to see those pictures.

Its brain washing pure and simple.

January, the irony eh? Standing out like a sore thumb while being almost totally invisible at the same time.

Yes January same here. I once had to attend a meeting with a client and our opponent and their (male) lawyer in Riyadh. I had to sit alone in another room and talk via Skype with my head covered. I felt impotent.

I also felt sorry for my client because no doubt next time they will choose a male lawyer who will not be so disadvantaged when representing them.

DH and I sometimes go to a Persian resto here that has links to the Iranian government and insists on hijab even though it is not compulsory in UAE (thank goodness!) I have tried to argue with them over not wearing it but they insist every time. Now DH and I both wear our napkins on our head throughout the meal as a minor act of rebellion Apparently as long as your head is covered it's fine if you look ridiculous (and DH can wear what he likes anyway...)

The post above about fundamental Christian sects illustrates clearly that this is not about Islam. It is about the subjugation of women by men, for whom religion is a very convenient excuse.

I am very comfortable with people having sincere religious beliefs - unlike some here who mock any religion at the least opportunity - providing they guide people to enlightenment and not physical or emotional oppression of others.

Napkins on your head. Brilliant

Whoever said materialism is the preserve of the West is either being goady or else naive.

I'll give then the benefit of the doubt and I'll assume they are being naive.

Just have a wander in London to see the large groups of veiled women shopping or watch the boy racers in Knightsbridge with their shiny, sometimes literally gold cars.

younggirl for you and your DH. That's glorious!

Sally I am not sure I agree with you there. It is absolutely true that all Abrahamic religions are patriarchal. However, look at what Islam teaches about apostasy and unbelievers, for example. It seems impossible to separate the repression of women from Islamic practice because of what Islamic laws actually say. Sharia says that a woman's word is worth less than a man's, that she cannot witness documents, etc. Children "belong" to the husband's family. This is not an interpretation by some fundamentalist nutter - this is what practicing Muslims believe. I hope I have understood this wrongly, but nonetheless this is my understanding.

One difference with the other Abrahamic religions is that whereas a Christian might view the Old Testament as being "of its time" i.e guidance for life in the holy land thousands of years ago, few would argue that those principles should be adhered to now. The Koran is not viewed as "of its time" - it's rules are absolute and in many respects that does not paint a very rosy picture for women.