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Original poster

Continuation thread re IOC/trans policy and related trans issues

955 replies

fidel1ne · 27/01/2016 12:26

Also a plug for the FB group Grin

www.facebook.com/groups/ATWIWS/

OP posts:
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11
Babieseverywhere · 13/02/2016 13:44

But it is cruel to tell transwomen that they are women and they are entitled to access women's events and spaces. Even meaner to the women who already occupy that space but who cares we are just women

Male Professionals should be helping transwomen be comfortable and happy with themselves as a unique group of transwomen (or other non-taken label of their choice) and they should create their own spaces which fit their own specific requirements.

Maryz · 13/02/2016 14:19

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Bambambini · 13/02/2016 15:26

"But it is cruel to tell transwomen that they are women and they are entitled to access women's events and spaces. Even meaner to the women who already occupy that space but who cares we are just women"

But, that's your opinion. A lot of opinion and law says diffrently. I don't necessarily agree or lije it but for many transwomen are women.

PosieReturningParker · 13/02/2016 15:52

Blinding? Have you read any of Paris Lees stuff? It's very sexually aggressive and idiotic. She was an embarrassment on QT, I was watching as a friend of mine was excited to see her on the panel. She was dreadful, said dumb things generally and offered less than someone like Peter Hitchens to the debate.

Paris Lees is a TW, not a woman. She neither represents the trans movement or women, she's an individual.

Bambambini · 13/02/2016 16:05

Yes blinding you to make derogatory comments about her aopearance. She/he looks like an attractive woman to me whether i like her or not. People were being sneery about how transwomen look, making digs about hoe they can never pass etc. I just think this brings to debate down a level and gives people ammunition that folk are just bigoted and transphobic. I don't think it helps.

PosieReturningParker · 13/02/2016 16:18

How they can never pass isn't transphobic, it's just a fact in my opinion.
I didn't bring up looks, you did and I disagreed. I'm not sneery either, I wish TW well and happiness, and I accept that their struggles are nothing like mine because I am a woman.

fascicle · 13/02/2016 16:39

Maryz
Exactly, Bambambini, I've said all along that this new transgender "trend" must be really hard on transexuals - people who genuinely believe they are the other sex, were born into the wrong body, and were unhappy enough and determined enough to change their bodies, to completely relive their lives.

How far is this a case of different people rather than different treatment options? Would somebody who had surgery a couple of decades ago make the same decision today?

There is an irony: transsexuals used to receive the criticism from some feminists that is now levelled at transwomen.

PosieReturningParker
How they can never pass isn't transphobic, it's just a fact in my opinion.

How are you ever going to know the transwomen who did pass, that you didn't notice?

WilLiAmHerschel · 13/02/2016 17:43

The logical conclusion of Ice's argument is that the paralympics should be abolished, too.

I did ask Ice what her views on the Paralympics are but she didn't answer. I thought the same as you though Annie.

ShortcutButton · 13/02/2016 18:13

ices 'arguement' doesn't have a logical anything

She reminds me of Rowley Birkin QC

TheNewStatesman · 14/02/2016 11:20

"But lets say there was no women's and men's category in sports, just one big group. And it so happened that the women rarely beat or equalled the men. What's to stop the women from going off and starting their own groups and running their own competitions and events?"

They did. That is how women's sports started. The trouble is that now some transwomen want to participate in these events as well.

We COULD go away and start our our "Women-Born Women Event for Women Who Were Assigned Female At Birth" (sponsored by Tampax), but if we did that then we would be flooded by a tidal wave of hate mail, online harrassment, protest demonstrations, death threats, rape threats, doxxing and everything else.

As for Paris Leesat the risk of sounding like a stuck record, Paris Lees is very very obviously an "early transitioner"she ticks every single box on the list. She looks like a very typical attractive young woman to me. I wish her the best and hope she stays safe. Early transitioners like Lees are not the group we have to worry about when it comes to women's sports. It is overwhelmingly the late transitioners (the ones who are sexually attracted to women and lived for decades as a HETEROSEXUAL man before transitioning) who are wanting to compete in women's sport as women.

WindyMillersProbationOfficer · 14/02/2016 11:55

Paris Lees is an MRA's dream trans activist, tbh.

WilLiAmHerschel · 14/02/2016 12:19

I know Statesmen. I was talking about how I can imagine it happening again if IceBeing's wish of lumping all men and women together was to happen.

fascicle · 14/02/2016 14:12

TheNewStatesman
Early transitioners like Lees are not the group we have to worry about when it comes to women's sports. It is overwhelmingly the late transitioners (the ones who are sexually attracted to women and lived for decades as a HETEROSEXUAL man before transitioning) who are wanting to compete in women's sport as women.

What are your claim and concerns about late transitioners in women's sport based on, TheNewStatesman?

ShortcutButton · 14/02/2016 14:38

A lifetime of training as a man; with male hormones? A well developed male physique?

Really these questions are stupid

shins · 14/02/2016 17:24

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/feb/13/peter-tatchell-snubbed-students-free-speech-veteran-gay-rights-activist#comments

Peter Tatchell is transphobic now apparently and must be no-platformed. FFS.

fascicle · 14/02/2016 19:31

ShortcutButton
A lifetime of training as a man; with male hormones? A well developed male physique?

Really these questions are stupid

Only if you misunderstand them. I'm not asking about perceived advantages. I'm asking for the basis of the claim that It is overwhelmingly the late transitioners...who are wanting to compete in women's sport as women as well as wondering how their sexual orientation is relevant and whether or not it's linked to NewStatesman's concerns about late transitioners in women's sport.

Maryz · 15/02/2016 01:07

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TheNewStatesman · 15/02/2016 07:44

No stats as such, but the sportspeople discussed on sites like GenderTrender almost always seem to be transwomen who transitioned after decades living as a male-gender-conforming man. I am sure there will be cases of early transitioners getting into women's sports as well, but it just doesn't seem to be as much of a "thing." And if they transitioned quite early (puberty blockers and transition in the teens), it is likely that there will be little physiological difference from a natal woman in terms of sporting ability.

PosieReturningParker · 16/02/2016 15:56

Paris Lees loves to be eye fucked and street harassed when she's a TW seen as a W (by the blind, I assume) but not the street harassment she gets for being a TW....

She's certainly not a woman.

mathanxiety · 17/02/2016 05:11

Posie, this is because being a tw is performance art, in which the general public is sucked into the performance unwittingly. 'Gender identification' is meaningless without the audience participation.

TalkingintheDark · 17/02/2016 10:06

Absolutely, math.

fascicle · 17/02/2016 10:18

NewStatesman
So your claim was based on information from sites like GenderTrender - an anonymously run anti trans blog.

Maryz
This has been answered over and over.

As previously stated, I was questioning the specifics of NewStateman's claim - late transitioners rather than early transitioners competing in women's sport; relevance of the comment about sexuality. I wasn't asking about perceived advantage and in terms of 'answering over and over' - there has been endless speculation, but no evidence.

How can late or non-transitioned people be thought to NOT have an advantage over a woman who has a fully female body?

Everything I've read suggests that information on male to female trans athletes is scarce and in effect, the jury is out. I'm not sure how many non transitioned athletes you're expecting to compete, and how they would satisfy the yet to be published federation rules - as said before, the IOC guidelines include a clause which effectively provides for case by case decision making to ensure no unfair advantage. Not sure how a non transitioned athlete could possibly satisfy international federation requirements on that score.

NewStatesman
From your article:

This didn't seem like a transgender issue to staff

Let's hope this story won't be misused.

TheNewStatesman · 17/02/2016 11:56

There is no evidence that the man concerned was any sort of transgender. The point I was making is that depending on the way laws are phrased, we could get into a situation where it is hard to challenge a man who walks into a woman's changing room.

I disagree with quite a lot of the GenderTrender site and am not a radical feminist. But I have to say that the transwomen who have come to my attention for competing in women's sports mostly do seem to be late transitioners. If you disagree with this, that's fine--I could be wrong. But I guess it means that the ball is now in your court. I mean, can you find me lots of examples of trans-sports-women who are androphilic early-transitioners? Maybe you can. I just can't really think of any examples myself. At the least, I would say they appear to be much less common.

TheNewStatesman · 17/02/2016 12:05

Hmmmm... Wikipedia is admittedly not the most complete or authoritative source, but clicking through these biographies, it looks like most of the transwomen are late transitioners.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Transgender_and_transsexual_sportspeople