Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Continuation thread re IOC/trans policy and related trans issues

955 replies

fidel1ne · 27/01/2016 12:26

Also a plug for the FB group Grin

www.facebook.com/groups/ATWIWS/

OP posts:
Thread gallery
11
Maryz · 11/02/2016 20:39

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

IceBeing · 11/02/2016 20:44

I am arguing against the assertion, made by multiple others on this thread, that this change in the rules will affect women's sport at all levels. Beyond 'yes it will NAHNAHNAH' there hasn't actually been any justification of why people are saying this.

Is it genuinely wrong to look at a thread and ask why people are holding a view so firmly without brooking argument or debate?

Why will the appearance of transwomen winning medals have any affect whatsoever on my DD doing sport at school? There will still be PE? There will still be sports day? The olympics is last about 3 days per year. How does it affect her life one iota?

Maryz · 11/02/2016 20:54

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

WhereYouLeftIt · 11/02/2016 20:56

"If they think they are 'the fastest' then I think I finally understand what you are getting at. This never occurred to me. I have often been the best girl at a sporting activity (in my school, and occasionally county) but have never been under the illusion this made me anything other than good for a girl."
So you were really good at sport at school, but don't understand competitive spirit and how having nowhere to go with that talent (because you're never going to make it in the Olympics, the medals will go to the transwomen) could be dispiriting and lead to a disincentive to continue in sports? Riiiight Hmm ...

Either you are being a goady fucker of your head is completely screwed with this 'good for a girl' schtick.

0phelia · 11/02/2016 21:14

IceBeing is not a girl or a woman. She believes she is, though. Is that the same?

ShortcutButton · 11/02/2016 21:39

Once again, trying to follow the trans-ally side of the argument, I am led to the conclusion that they are actual all thick ads pig shit

How is it ice that you don't understand the concept of sport, competition, fairness, anatomy &physiology, aspirations, role models and college scholarships???

ShortcutButton · 11/02/2016 21:40

0phelia ice did say they are a woman

0phelia · 11/02/2016 21:44

Yes Ice did say they are a woman.
She said she is a woman.

0phelia · 11/02/2016 21:45

ykwim?

ShortcutButton · 11/02/2016 21:46

My dd is VERY competitive. She always comes in 1st 2nd or 3rd.

If trans-girls were to compete against her, then there is a good chance she wouldn't place, because she is then competing against boys

She is very fair minded and see immediately that the boys have an advantage

She would become demotivated. Because she could train and train and still not beat those boys, because they have different pelvis shapes and higher muscle:fat ratio

She runs to win.
She would stop, I'm sure if she had no chance

ShortcutButton · 11/02/2016 21:48

0ph they said, by the dictionary definition

(I think she can hear us Grin)

0phelia · 11/02/2016 21:50

Lots of Transwomen can adopt the dictionary definition with their deeply held belief.

0phelia · 11/02/2016 21:51

Not a hope in hell she isn't a TW.

0phelia · 11/02/2016 21:52

Might get deleted but it's so flippin obvious!

CoteDAzur · 11/02/2016 22:24

Ice - re "I am arguing against the assertion that this change in the rules will affect women's sport at all levels. Beyond 'yes it will NAHNAHNAH' there hasn't actually been any justification of why people are saying this. Is it genuinely wrong to look at a thread and ask why people are holding a view so firmly without brooking argument or debate?"

Quite the contrary, we have been giving reason after reason after fact as to why this development is worrying for women's sport. All we got in return has indeed been "No it won't NAHNAHNAH".

There has been ample justification for this concern, much of it on this very thread, which you really should be able to see if you would just remove the blinkers for one minute.

The abridged version is that men are physically stronger, faster, and more resilient than women. That is why they compete at a different category than women. Allowing men (= adult human males, of the sex that can produce semen) to compete in women's category is unfair and is quite likely to result over time in women's records being easily broken and kept out of reach by transwomen.

The longer version is as below, as already features downthread:

CoteDAzur Wed 27-Jan-16 20:02:28

Men have about 10-20% greater bone density than women.

Men have on average 36% greater muscle mass than women.

Men tend to have approximately 40% greater upper body strength and 20-30% greater lower body strength than women.

Men have larger lungs and greater lung volume, which leads to about 50% greater lung volume per unit of body mass than a woman of the same size

Men have physically larger hearts (about 10-15%) than women, and so have greater cardiac output leading to greater endurance.

Men have about a 10% higher erythrocyte count and a higher hemoglobin level, which leads to a higher oxygen-carrying capacity, which also leads to a higher endurance

Men produce more erythropoietin than women and also do so at a faster rate, leading to faster production of erythrocytes at altitudes.

Men produce more clotting factors and have a higher platelet count, meaning that they heal faster from wounds inflicted during sports.

Source: any physiology textbook.

Taking estrogen downplays a few of these advantages but it doesn't change the person's bone size, lung size, heart size, erythrocyte, hemoglobin, or platelet count, or the amount of muscle mass that the person had before taking the hormones.

The argument that estrogen makes the person weaker is false because we are talking about an athlete who is training, right? So it isn't as if the muscle that they already have is going to atrophy - the estrogen is just going to make it less easy for them to build new muscle as rapidly.

CoteDAzur · 11/02/2016 23:05

IceBeing - re "cote I certainly wouldn't class the definitions (there [sic] existence or anyone quoting them) as transphobic. Facts are facts."

Great, we are getting somewhere.

If you understand the dictionary definitions, then you also understand that transwomen are not women (= adult human females) simply because they are not female (= of the sex that can bear young or produce eggs).

And if you agree that transwomen are not women, then you must also agree that they have no place in women's competitions.

I'm glad we got that sorted out. Now have a nice evening Smile

mathanxiety · 12/02/2016 05:02

IceBeing Thu 11-Feb-16 20:19:59

Here it is:
Girls like to think they have the chance to cross the tape first/score the goal/make the spike/etc. The hope of winning is what keeps them playing and practicing.

In short:
Girls like to win. Girls try to win.
What is so difficult about that?

There will be no more 'levels' for girls when boys take over girls' sports at all the levels under elite. There will be no girls at elite level either, because the pipeline will be taken over by boys. Girls will get edged out.

Because (for example) nobody feels like getting up at 5 am one freezing winter morning shortly after Christmas and hauling herself to the school pool for tryouts for the water polo team only to be mauled by a bunch of so called 'transgirls', or even by one so called 'transgirl'. When someone with a grossly unfair advantage turns up and is allowed to play, girls tend to figure it is not worth the effort. The motivation to compete is the existence of the elite level and the hope of getting there some day, and this hope is encouraged by the experience of working, learning, and winning against fair competition at the basic levels.

mathanxiety · 12/02/2016 05:26

IceBeing:

You do not seem to understand that in many circles, girls are central in their own world. They do not define themselves in relation to boys. This is thanks to the constant articulation of high expectations on the part of coaches and parents and teachers. Girls competing in sports where the coaches make them understand that every ounce of their strength and commitment is required tend to take themselves and their sport world seriously. Ditto teachers, and parents.

I am very sorry for you that you could only see yourself as 'good - for a girl'. Thanks to the existence of the sort of intense sport experience you ranted against, there are hundreds of thousands of girls and women, especially in the US, who would be most surprised at the suggestion that they are satellites of anyone. Same goes for girls who go all out for maths and physics and engineering courses, encouraged by teachers and parents who have high expectations.

It is all about breaking down the gendered expectations and making sure girls understand the reality of what their bodies (including their brains) are capable of, and that starts with acknowledging and appreciating what exactly their bodies comprise, shape and function determined by chromosomes, and goes on to accept no limiting of their potential by the innately malignant hierarchical concept of gender.

IceBeing · 12/02/2016 09:36

Ophelia do a get a grip love. A cursory search of my user name will find me sharing my horrendous childbirth experience, supporting other women who have experienced the same and lobbying for better post natal care.

I suppose that I dreamed all that in the depths of my TW psychosis.....

ArcheryAnnie · 12/02/2016 12:31

IceBeing would you accept that Rachel, as a Black-identified white woman, is more oppressed than Black women, and in fact Black women are her primary oppressors? Do you think that Black-identified whites should be centred and prioritised over Black people in anti-racist activism? Because that's the analagous state to where we are with trans issues.

MaidOfStars · 12/02/2016 12:42

Archery It's a ridiculous situation, isn't it?

Transactivists spoke out against RD and accused her of appropriation. The common claim was that transgender people are trying to be true to themselves while transracial people are fraudulent.

Well, how the fuck can anyone say that? How does anyone know what RD feels? How can someone say "my feelings of identity are genuine, but yours are not only false but downright offensive/racist" without their head exploding from the contradiction?

Skin colour is a biological fact (in most cases, variation within the system allowed). Sex is a biological fact (in most cases, variation within the system allowed).

If someone can want/need/take on a gender identity different to their biological sex, I cannot see any reason why someone cannot want/need/take on a racial identity different to their skin colour.

IceBeing · 12/02/2016 12:48

math I have no problem with 'girls try to win', 'girls train hard' 'girls are competitive'

I have a problem with the idea all girls who can't win just give up and walk away. If that actually happened then there would only be one girl in each sport. I was often the best at school or once at county level. I didn't give up when I moved to uni and wasn't the best any more.

Right now, all girls compete knowing they can't beat the best boys. I don't understand how being on the same race track when it happens makes any difference.

ArcheryAnnie · 12/02/2016 12:53

It even worse than that, Maid. RD effectively disguised herself as a Black woman, whereas under current trans activism rules she needn't have bothered: keeping her white appearance and just declaring she was Black would automatically have made her more oppressed on racial grounds than any actual Black person in the room, and in fact any actual Black people in the room would be her oppressors.

Makes me rage. "Trans-disabled" people can do one, too.

IceBeing · 12/02/2016 12:56

archeryanne I don't know. It is a good point. Did RD have it harder than a black woman? Well she got pilloried in the press globally which wouldn't have happened if she was a black woman...she got fired which wouldn't have happened if she was a black woman either. I don't think her rights should be put ahead of black women's but I also don't see how they have been?

So are TW more disadvantaged in society than women? TM it would seem certainly are more disadvantaged than women. But for TW there is the bringing in of male privilege during upbringing. How do you perceive or engage with privilege you are shown that doesn't match your identity? Should TW rights be protected at the expense of womens rights...the question only arises when there is a direct conflict between the two and no way to change the world to accommodate both.

Should TW invade womens refuges? I don't think so. Should they have their own safe spaces? I do think so. Same for bathrooms.

IceBeing · 12/02/2016 12:58

So when are the IOC going to rule that trans-disabled athletes can compete in the paralympics?