Continuation thread re IOC/trans policy and related trans issues

[fidel1ne]

Also a plug for the FB group

www.facebook.com/groups/ATWIWS/

maid it isn't 'only open to males' it is 'only open to males who have a particular physique and skill set'

should women be allowed to escape poverty this way? Why only the muscular ones? shouldn't short fat males and females be able to excape poverty too?

Sport is unfair. It was never a level playing field, it will never be a level playing field. Arguing over who it is specifically unfair against when that already includes the overwhelming majority of human kind whether male or female is bonkers.

Oh god. maryz has started yelling at me again. Fine. I will hide the thread and you can all carry on with the 'no woman will ever do sport again' collective woe-is-us sob-fest without contradiction.

Nothing in life is equal though. Success at something is usually due to a mix talent, hard work, opportunity and luck. Where possible we can try and create a level playing field as much as we can. That is something as a society we should be striving towards not working against.

But lets say there was no women's and men's category in sports, just one big group. And it so happened that the women rarely beat or equalled the men. What's to stop the women from going off and starting their own groups and running their own competitions and events? (Which I'm guessing is sort of how a lot of women's teams came about abyway. They aren't created by the prime minister, but set up by individuals.) You think they shouldn't be allowed to do this?

Segregating by sex is different to having different categories to allow people who are not genetically suited to competing in a specific sport. This is because there are many different sports which will suit people of different builds etc.

If you didn't segregate by sex, however, then females would never have a chance of winning any sport at the high level (or vanishingly small chance).

Anyway, given that the concensus is that under most circumstances sex segregated sport is a good thing, it's a bit tangential to this thread.

Want someone to drink Coke? Show them a can of Coke. Advertisers know that.

Want women to do sports? Show them women doing sports.

DD is a competitive dancer; from the age of 8 she has competed against and lost to boys

If there were enough boys (at least 6 out of 30-50) they had their own competition separate from the girls, but not routinely - as they got older girls dance with girls and often lose to girls dancing with boys

DD got fed up & stepped sidewards and competed to get upper school/college places - the criteria for boys to get places is generally (but not exclusively) thought to be lower. As is the criteria for getting funding.

DD is not the best, but she is better than lots - she strives to be the best she can be. She got places, she got funding, she got a scholarship (one for children - either boys or girls)

When she goes for jobs, it is unlikely that the jobs she will go for will be sought after by TW - she is 5ft 5 mixed race and so many casting director chose on ability to fit into existing costume - but the most athletic roles (Cats?) would quite possibly take on TW for the-non singing roles for the athletic ability.....over time the costumes could get bigger

Men already dance en pointe - will TW become lead at the Royal Ballet maybe?

But forcing women & girls to compete with men & boys is not right - and in dance (at top levels) the boys will (& do) win

The dance thing is a red herring though as there's nothing to stop casting directors casting men instead of women now if they want to.

will the women did start their own clubs and events

Now TW are elbowing their way in

ICE You are doing a better job than me in educating the masses in the new rules.

Keep going, you are doing well just not the way you thought it would go...

^sarcasm

Maryz I did not know that about the women's boat racing! I can't believe it took until 2015 for them to allow women to race on the same day as the men's. (I think the women should have said 'screw you' and stuck to doing their own thing, because who decided the men's race was the proper one anyway?)

Shortcut yes I said I imagined that's probably how women's sports did start. The point I was trying to make to IceBeing is that say she had her way and all sexes were told they must compete together in one group. I can imagine a lot of women, getting pissed off at always losing out to men who are naturally stronger, faster ot whatever. So they go off and form their own groups. Then what? That will be illegal? Or not illegal but sponsorship and advertising deals will be illegal? I just think if men and women's separate events were forced together, women would break off again naturally.

On a personal note, which I know isn't worth much, I've always avoided participating in sports (because I'm useless) and I hated having to watch any sport. I just found it really boring. Then when the 2012 Olympics happened, i couldn't escape it and I discovered Jessica Ennis. I was amazed at this woman who was just a couple of years older than me and so fit and healthy and strong. It made me think I want to be like that. Nothing major, but it did have an effect on me and I am still making an effort to stay healthy and now am looking to start lifting some (very light to start) weights. I've since discovered that I enjoy watching women's football on tv. I thought I hated football now I actually look forward to my dd getting older so I can hopefully take her to watch what will be my first live match. I just hope it's still a proper women's team by then.

Women and men have different groups in sport because biology does make a difference, TW want to pretend it has no impact.

Is there any reason that a trans event could not be added to the current men and women events, rather than try and shoe horn transwomen into the women event. They have their own strengths (which make joining the women unfair to the women) and weaknesses (which make joining the men unfair to the transwoman)

Adding a specific category for transwomen, means everyone can compete fairly with other people with the same body types and hormones levels.

A transwomen can never be a biological woman, winning a women's race or using a woman's toilet, won't change that fact. How could it ?

Logical the moment a transwoman enters an woman only space, that space by definition becomes a transwomen space.

For safety and dignity reasons, women will move away to find another woman only space.

Transwomen can not expect women to feel unsafe and have no dignity when toileting or changing, just to valid the incorrect statement that they are a woman.

If they were a woman, they would not ask and they would understand why.

Maryz
How she has been allowed to dominate this thread with a completely irrelevant (to the point of the thread) point baffles me.

That's not an accurate assessment, Mary. This thread has been dominated by those who oppose transwomen competing in the women's category and believe it will ruin women's sport/degrade women's rights. Not sure why IceBeing has received criticism - she's made some interesting points. And if you consider the thread as a whole, there are plenty of divergences.

PosieReturningParker
Women and men have different groups in sport because biology does make a difference, TW want to pretend it has no impact.

Nobody disagrees that biology makes a difference between men and women's sport. The question is, how much of a difference biology makes in sporting events involving transwomen (receiving hormonal treatment and satisfying federation rules) competing with born women; how transwomen compare to the variation within a group of born women. Not sure who you are referring to with your 'TW want to pretend' comment. (In the IOC meeting which led to the new guidelines, I think there was one transwoman and 19 other members - mainly doctors with relevant specialisms and a few sports lawyers.)

Re: separate category for transwomen. I presume that the majority of transwomen want to blend in and pass as women, rather than be labelled/singled out as trans.

Transwomen requested their label, I think it would be much better if everyone was a person with no gender, rather than keep referring to pointless and inaccurate social norms which many people (including me) don't fit.

Don't get the 'passing' thing myself....it seems to means that my safety and dignity in a women only space is irrelevant as a passing transwomen can fraudulently deceive me.

But if you deceive someone in any other situation it would be a criminal issue. But deceiving women seems to be acceptable to the transwomen community.....another reason they could never be a women.

No transwoman passes for a woman, well not any that I've seen, including the far more feminine Asian TWs.

TW want to say that their years being male, their physical advantages of being biologically male have no impact, we;; they do./

Life's shit, I'm 5'1 and therefore will never make the women basket ball team..... however if I had a penis I still could.

Many pass as women. Paris Lees looks like a very attractive woman. You could be walking by Transwomen and not even notice - you are only going to notice the ones who don't pass.

Paris Lees? Grotesque stupid person and not passing as a woman at all!! Even if you overlooked her massive hands and masculine face as soon as she opens her mouth you couldn't think she was a woman, definite TW, at best. And positively loathsome about women, she has a very very male attitude and voice when it comes to women.

The logical conclusion of Ice's argument is that the paralympics should be abolished, too. Are you a paraplegic championship swimmer? You want to compete against others with a similar level of disability as you? Screw You! You should just compete against non-paraplegics, even though you will never, ever win.

Most of the elite-level swimmers who competed in the paralympics can swim faster than most other people, whether those other people have disabilities or not. They are unlikely to be able to swim faster than the elite-level swimmers who don't have a disability.

If you didn't know anything about her - saw a pic or she passed you in the street etc - you would know she was a transwomen - really?

I saw her in QT and looked her up as she wasn't the usual kind of guest. I think your dislike/ hate is blinding you.

I think the his thread is in danger of lumping all Trans people in together in a cruel way.

I also think the "does this TW pass as a woman" is a total non-issue. The issue isn't whether TW look like women - because what does a woman look like? The issue is whether TW are women.

I think it's harder with transwomen who transition early and do pass as women more, have had surgery hormone treatment, counselling etc and really think of themselves as women.

The new laws being passed about what seems like a casual self identification of being a women without the need for any surgery, hormone treatment, counselling etc is something else. Also the type of decisions being made like the IOC, other sports, scholarships etc.