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Continuation thread re IOC/trans policy and related trans issues

955 replies

fidel1ne · 27/01/2016 12:26

Also a plug for the FB group Grin

www.facebook.com/groups/ATWIWS/

OP posts:
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ToastDemon · 12/02/2016 12:59

How would this work in terms of disabled athletes then? Just have them compete all together with the men and women as well in your vision of the Olympics IceBeing?

WilLiAmHerschel · 12/02/2016 13:03

IceBeing what are your thoughts on the Paralympic Games?

WilLiAmHerschel · 12/02/2016 13:04

Sorry Toast, I hadn't refreshed the page when I posted.

splendide · 12/02/2016 13:13

I think we should be a little careful of hanging too much from dictionary definitions. It's not a trump card - the dictionary just reflects popular use and I could certainly imagine the definition of woman being changed to include transwomen. I would not support this change, to be clear.

CoteDAzur · 12/02/2016 13:13

Ice - "I have a problem with the idea all girls who can't win just give up and walk away. If that actually happened then there would only be one girl in each sport."

I guess you can make anything look ridiculous if you misrepresent the argument for it.

Nobody is saying "young people who can't win walk away from a sport". We are saying that young people at a certain level of the game train hard (quite often investing all their free time and energy) because they hope to be the best or one of the best. Because they think they can win the competitions they enter, or at least be one of the best.

I am sorry if you cannot understand why sport is sex-segregated but everyone on this thread has patiently explained and given examples. I honestly don't know how else we can help you understand. You might have to walk away from this subject feeling that there are things in this world that you just can't figure out.

CoteDAzur · 12/02/2016 13:15

"the dictionary just reflects popular use"

Dictionary gives the meaning words in the English language.

You can't just assume meanings that are not there. If everyone did that, we wouldn't be able to understand each other.

CoteDAzur · 12/02/2016 13:15

meanings of words

IceBeing · 12/02/2016 13:17

math your last post really made me think.

So if girls were separated off for say maths and physics and were good, but only good in comparison to other girls and not competitive with the boys, then what would happen when they got to the job market? We don't have physics jobs for girls and physics jobs for boys. We all have to compete as equals (which, thanks to male privilege and gender stereotyping we aren't).

So what does equality of opportunity mean?

I think it means different things when you are talking about accessing services or leisure time activities than it does when you talk about accessing the job market.

In the areas not to do with jobs we think everyone should have an equal opportunity to access resources and activities. So men, women, TM, TW should all have the chance to use a swimming pool or a bus without fear.

When it comes to jobs, we limit the equality of opportunity argument because not everyone has equal chance of being a physicist or a super model. Their genetics largely determine there potential in both these activities. But we do say that for two people equally able to do the job there should be no variation in opportunity over any other characteristic. Or in other words you can't demand a job as a physicist if you can't do A-level maths....if you can't do maths then you have no right to a job in this area. If women are less able at maths on average then tough shit - there are no physics jobs just for women because they can't compete on the maths front with men.

From fire service, police service, the army etc. If women can't make the physical grade then they can't serve. Sometimes they have to make a lower physical grade but if I were a man that could make the womens but not the mens fitness grade I would be suing their asses off for that one. Either the job requires a certain level of fitness or it doesn't. Maybe now they can side step the issue by declaring they feel they are women...

So how does this apply to sport? If it is professional level then it is a job and the relevant criteria is 'are you any good at sport'. If you aren't any good at sport then you don't have any right to a career in sport. If women on average are less good at sport than men, then why should there be a special category of sports jobs just for women?

Sport seems to be one of the few places you get to do a job even if you aren't very good at it as long as you are a woman?

splendide · 12/02/2016 13:20

"Dictionary gives the meaning words in the English language. "

I don't quite understand what you mean here but if you're saying that dictionaries dictate meaning then that's not quite right. Dictionaries record meaning and absolutely change their definitions according to use, politics etc.

IceBeing · 12/02/2016 13:21

cote but that has been my point all along. The majority of girls weren't the best girl, they didn't walk away...they enjoy their sport and enjoy improving for the sake of personal development not medals. So for the majority of girls this TW business is a total non-issue.

There is a very VERY small subset of girls who could have won a gold medal and may now not do so. I do feel sorry for them (although not as much as I do for the current women athletes who have been sold out completely). But claiming this is a disaster or in anyway affects the majority of girls is untrue.

WilLiAmHerschel · 12/02/2016 13:24

Icebeing - on average men's bodies give them an advantage to women in sporting competitions. Cote has outlined these advantages in her posts above. Because of these physical differences sports are often segregated by sex. This means that women compete against women and men against men. A woman can become top of her game and a man top of his. They are two different ball parks. It is not that women are less good at sport than men, our bodies are physically different.

CoteDAzur · 12/02/2016 13:29

"If women on average are less good at sport than men, then why should there be a special category of sports jobs just for women?"

Except that it is not a "sports job".

This is bleeding obvious but just in case you are genuinely having trouble getting it: There are several distinct levels of physical capability. There is female, male, and disabled, for example. These are separate categories in sports because female can't beat male (for the most part) and disabled can't beat either (for the most part).

There isn't one job opening that needs to be filled by the most worthy person available, but a genuine drive to be the best in one's category while the rest of the world watches to see how far the human race can drive its achievements through its best athletes.

How you have done any sports at a competitive level and not felt this or at least figured it out at a later date is really quite amazing.

ArcheryAnnie · 12/02/2016 13:29

Ice female bodies which have physiological differences to male bodies are a reality, girls being less intelligent due to their ladybrains are not. There is no comparison.

WhereYouLeftIt · 12/02/2016 13:31

Has this now descended into a straw man argument?

(Wiki definition : A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument which was not advanced by that opponent.)

CoteDAzur · 12/02/2016 13:36

I think we are all familiar with the logical fallacy of Straw Man.

Rather, it has descended to one MNer saying there should be no women's sports since men are so much better at it.

IceBeing · 12/02/2016 13:36

Right - but it is a sports job. Being paid to compete is a job. Why should anyone not good a sports say they have right to be paid to compete?

You have two categories or people here...both demanding the right to be paid to compete. The easiest answer would be that noone has the right to be paid to compete. The best people at a particular sport can get the crowds in and be paid to compete. The fact is that in a lot of sports this will eventually lead to all professional sports people being black males.

Most professional basketball teams are now overwhelmingly black. Should we have a separate league for white people? Obviously it isn't a level playing field from a genetic perspective in much the same way it isn't a level playing field between men and women....so do white people have a right to be professional sports people? Or do they just suck it up that their genetics doesn't advantage them?

IceBeing · 12/02/2016 13:37

archery indeed which is why we should have female physicists but not female professional athletes. Do a job if you are good at it...

IceBeing · 12/02/2016 13:41

If you do have a separate 100 m final for white people, then you could have a reverse RD situation in which somebody black could claim they 'felt white' and should therefore get to compete in the white finals.

Hopefully this shows the nonsense of having categories in professional sport for people who for a specific genetic reason are less good at sports than others, while not having categories for the whole of the rest of the genetic reasons why some people are good at sport and others aren't.

WilLiAmHerschel · 12/02/2016 13:43

You have two categories or people here...

And currently there are two distinct groups for them to join, dependant on their sex. You are talking about abolishing this altogether it seems. If you feel strongly about that why don't you start a new thread about it to discuss it and leave this one to carry on discussing what it was intended to?

CoteDAzur · 12/02/2016 13:47

What exactly is this job you are talking about, Ice?

Take Nadal. He gets sponsorship deals from the likes of Telefonica, Tommy Hilfiger and Nike, which pays him to wear their clothes in competitions. He also wins prize money in tournaments.

So where is the job? It's just him winning prizes and also being given money for advertisement.

Do you know how sports advertisement works? It is not a job opening where anyone can apply and the best one who can do the job gets to do it. Corporate sponsors look around for the sports person who look good, is successful, and can be an aspirational model to their target audience. That means there is demand for both men and women - when you want to market your women's clothes, Nadal won't do.

WhereYouLeftIt · 12/02/2016 13:48

Then I must return to my thought that either Ice is being a goady fucker or her upbringing has left her with massive issues around 'good for a girl'. Except of course her earlier posts on this thread included such gems as "but not all biological females have a pregnancy issue. so it isn't a women's issue is it?", so I'm guessing goady fucker. Which is sad.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 12/02/2016 13:50

Blooming nora, someone on Mumsnet has seriously argued there shouldn't be women professional athletes?!

CoteDAzur · 12/02/2016 13:51

"Hopefully this shows the nonsense of having categories in professional sport for people who for a specific genetic reason are less good at sports than others"

It doesn't. It just shows that you are really not getting it.

The differences between men and women in terms of physical strength and capacity are far greater than the differences between black and white. The latter are not even consistent. Women's marathon record has remained in the hands of a white woman since 2003, although men have been posting better times than hers since 1963.

If you still don't get it, really, I agree that you should start your own thread about your grievance re sex-segregated sports and let this thread get on with its own topic.

MaidOfStars · 12/02/2016 13:52

Ice You understand that being good at a sport is a means of escaping poverty for some? A way of seeing the world? A chance to make money and set up foundations to help more people participate? To be part of a team, to gain responsibility, to become a leader?

You think should only be open to males?

Maryz · 12/02/2016 14:42

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.