formula

[Emma2506]

Ok so I don't want to turn this into a whole ff vs bf war but I find it highly offensive to ff mums who can't collect advantage points/clubcard points, shops aren't allowed to have any offers on etc for formula. I understand it's the LAW but why is it acceptable to have deals on alcohol yet ff mums are penalised for choosing to ff or not being able physically able to bf? I know the excuse is shops promote breast feeding but I'm struggling to get my head around why a bf mum would buy formula just because it's on offer if she is doing well bf and it's FREE!

Well said focus and catsmeow.

It's all well and good saying "read the tin", but we've got an increasing number of children leaving school illiterate. We've got an increasing number of new mums whose first language is not English, and actually their knowledge of English isn't great at all. You're also dealing with a lot of young mums, where BF support is particularly abysmal, who are feeling scared, anxious, the constant worry that you'll put one foot wrong and social services will step in and snatch your baby (thanks to media horror stories), who don't have mum friends to advise them, they just have older, sometimes overbearing family members pressuring them to do it "the good old way", and feeling too vulnerable to be able to say no. Calling them "careless" isn't fair. Some people have a very British middle class view of infant feeding.

I think what some people are struggling to understand is that this isn't "the majority attacking the minority" (where have we attacked BFers, exactly?) and it's not us saying "close down the breastfeeding helplines, shut down la leche league, march on breastfeeding cafes with pitchforks and flame torches and give all the support to formula feeding mums instead". In the nicest possible way, it's not all about you.

If we could just have a standardised system for health visitors who support and encourage BF until they know the woman intends to FF, and is then able to support mum and baby through the transition with practical advice and emotional support, rather than just saying "Well breast is best and we can't talk about formula", surely it'd be better for everyone?

That way, every HV is totally supportive of BF and never pushes formula - but if a woman comes to her and says "I've switched to formula", she can support her too without abandoning her.

That takes nothing away from BFers. You won't lose anything. We don't want to infiltrate your BF cafes or your la leche league meeting. I'm actually astonished that people begrudge new mums support in this way.

Some HVs push formula formula formula to every mum. Others are rigidly "breast is best and no discussion of formula". Surely some form of rigid, regulated standardisation is best for everyone? I can't see why anyone would disagree with that other than out of spite for "the other side".

(Isn't it funny how we talk about "sides"? Yet another way this is all one big manufactured "war" to draw focus away from the behaviour of the formula companies).

Just so totally what ovaries just said!

Meow don't feel bad these threads can be very good at making you feel awful for decisions you've already made.

I kind of hate formula at the moment but that's because I personally regret not carrying on bf particularly with my second. I also find it all a faff but that's my issue.

My 7 year old was mostly ff from about day 10 and he's a tall lanky healthy lad.

I do sometimes wonder if bf him might have made him tidy his room and pick his clothes up!

My experience of midwives and bf is that if you find it more than mildly difficult they tell you not to bother because you will take up a lot of their time.

Ovaries completely agree. I also think people don't realise that bf cafes and support groups can be very daunting. There's a view, whether correct or not, that it will be full of married upper middle class women in their 30s. Imagine how nerve wracking it would be to even walk in as a young single mum. I get told I look 15 (I'm not!) so you can imagine some of the looks I've gotten from people before.

I definitely think more bf support is needed but I think more support in general is also needed. Basically ovaries post.

Spot on haddock

It's these "sides" I do not get. See- I am a BF mum. When I meet an FF mum - all I can actually see is mum/woman/person.

I feel quite alone really in my BF journey. My family in law are staunchly against BF, my own family is halfway across the world - and every BF group I have accessed the latest being a Facebook group has made me see such sickening remarks made about FF and FF mums that I have drifted away.

There's one Facebook BF group in particular that boiled my head so much with the caustic comments about FF (not the statement of facts but personal toxic insults and derogatory words) that I left.

Ovaries, the interesting thing which the Infant Feeding Survey showed was that the more educated you are, the less likely you are to be following the recommended instructions on making up formula. Weird, no?

By the way my local BF cafe has women who are of all ages sat in scruffy clothes covered in puke and looking sleep deprived.

"It's these "sides" I do not get. See- I am a BF mum. When I meet an FF mum - all I can actually see is mum/woman/person"

That's all I and anyone else sees. The 'mummy wars' is a media invention.

mini The survey relies on women telling the truth - which they're less likely to do if they see themselves as being at a high risk of social services involvement/otherwise getting in "trouble" if they're not following the instructions.

I followed the instructions to the letter because I was terrified of any social services involvement - but if I hadn't, I certainly wouldn't have admitted it. Well-educated, first-language-English-speaking, middle-class women in their 30s are more likely to a) have arguments to justify their choices and b) have less reason to fear any repercussions for admitting they don't follow the instructions.

Focus

By the way my local BF cafe has women who are of all ages sat in scruffy clothes covered in puke and looking sleep deprived.

That message needs to be getting out there. The stereotypes about bf and bf support do put some people off. I was in a regular cafe but a group of bf mothers had met up and we're basically doing unofficial bf support. As I walked past I heard them talking about flat head syndrome and the comment was "well the only babies who get that are neglected babies who are left in a crib or in front of the TV, usually young parents". Put me right off.

Me too focus. We are all just women, just mummies. I have wide variation in my friends, staunch bf'ers (verging on anti ff), those who wanted to but couldn't bf, and those that simply didn't want to bf. But they are all mummies who want love their babies, they have simply chosen a different path. I'm constantly astounded by how much mummies pitch themselves against each other, bf/ff, co-sleep/cry it out, blw/purrees.... Does it really matter how someone else raises their child?

Minifingerz - no they are not a media invention. I have seen and heard these remarks personally - and despite not being on the receiving end of these as clearly I'm feeding my baby the "right" way- they do exist. I have quoted the comments made on the FV group breastfeeding yummy mummies in the past on Mumsnet. Some of them are sick.

If anyone fancies a laugh http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/the-version-of-5-little-monkeys-every-mom-will-relate-touss_56a24a8ee4b076aadcc64198?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000063

Focus that's amazing

focus I obviously can't speak for mini so I may be way off the mark but I interpreted the comment about them being a media invention not as saying "it's just been made up and doesn't exist", but rather that the media creates these battles and perpetuates them with a constant stream of not-very-scientific studies saying "FF babies are statistically more likely to develop a second head, join a Satanic cult and start speaking in tongues", or "Breastmilk is scientifically no better than formula", and they use emotive language in their articles to stir up the battle.

It only takes one seemingly-throwaway comment in the article to set off a war in their comments, on social media, even in person. Boom - they're getting instant publicity; instant views to their website; increased advertising revenue.

Take one of those "breastmilk no better than formula" arguments. You'll have one person (usually a man, strangely) saying "Then there's no excuse to whip your boobs out all the time, just give your baby a damn bottle you skanks". He feels justified to say this because of what the article says.

Then the media relies on having a breastfeeding woman, or a group of breastfeeding women, who come in and make mostly very well thought out, reasoned responses, but inevitably one will include a phrase like "not feeding my baby artificially" (obviously sometimes they take it a little too far and say "I'm not selfish" or "I love my baby enough to formula feed"). They then share it on breastfeeding groups, saying how angry it makes them.

The media then relies on formula feeding mums, who are probably feeling a little vulnerable and guilty about inability/choice not to breastfeed, to come on and reply out of hurt and anger, using tropes like "breastapo", "breastfeeding nazi", which have mostly been fed to us by - you guessed it - the media.

The circle of anger continues, but no-one is ever angry at the journalists who share the article, or the scientists who conduct the "study", or even the bloke who calls breastfeeding women skanks. It's always at each other.

and every BF group I have accessed the latest being a Facebook group has made me see such sickening remarks made about FF and FF mums that I have drifted away.

I just haven't seen this. I genuinely haven't.

I'm on around 50 of these types of groups and I am yet to see an anti formula or derogatory comment against mothers who FF.
I see plenty of 'breast is best' and 'don't give up, hang on in there's!' and wonder if these are what are being construed as anti formula??

Are you on "Breastfeeding Yummy Mummies", OhShutUp? That's the worst one I've encountered.

One of the MN postnatal groups I'm in had a massive split down the middle when one of the members shared a post from Breastfeeding Yummy Mummies that was thinly-veiled judging of FF mums, a few people called her out on it, she argued back that she has the right to think and say whatever she wants without people getting offended, and another poster came out in a bizarre rant saying that "yes I do judge those of you who give formula, I think you're lazy, I don't think you care as much about your babies" and on and on.

We were all just shocked at the outburst. The group split and is a lot smaller but happier now

Not on that one ovaries, id generally steer clear of anything with 'yummy mummies' in the title unless I have to!

That's bizarre about the postnatal group. Some people really miss the point of supporting others.

Ohshutup

A lot of bf mums do judge ff mums, openly so sometimes but more often snidely and implicitly.

It is disingenuous of you to repeatedly claim otherwise.

Ew ovaries, I think people who judge others on ff like that are probably insecure dickheads who judge people on all manner of things. They've found something that makes them feel superior and they're gonna really milk it, excuse the pun.

I just tried to look on that page but it's private Ovaries, do they just post smug crap?

breastfeeding yummy mummies is the one. I posted four quotes from them on a rhread on aibu last week

I BF. They made even me feel sick- I left finally.

It's an LLL peer support type group. Here's my post from last week - it's got quotes from this group that finally did it for me -

I was till a couple days ago a member of a Facebook breastfeeding support group called Breastfeeding Yummy Mummies. I'd joined foolishly thinking it was just a lovely support group not a group where I would go on to bear the following statements -

1. When I see formula tubs in boots I stick my middle finger up at them

1. Group rules you're not allowed to say happy mummy happy baby it's rather happy baby happy mummy

1. She's formula feeding probably to make time for her hair and nail appointments

1. And drumroll this last one - I'll be a young grandmother by the time my son marries and I might slip my Dgc some boob if DIL does FF.

That last was the final straw. I had leave and then nearly vomit.

And yes hats the group where I heard the term boobing. Keep on boobin mAma. Thanks but no thanks I'll just breastfeed and support my fellow mums whatever way they feed.