formula

[Emma2506]

Ok so I don't want to turn this into a whole ff vs bf war but I find it highly offensive to ff mums who can't collect advantage points/clubcard points, shops aren't allowed to have any offers on etc for formula. I understand it's the LAW but why is it acceptable to have deals on alcohol yet ff mums are penalised for choosing to ff or not being able physically able to bf? I know the excuse is shops promote breast feeding but I'm struggling to get my head around why a bf mum would buy formula just because it's on offer if she is doing well bf and it's FREE!

Similarly pyjama you didn't get on with ff that doesn't make it a horror story or that you shouldn't talk about it. Why is bf different

mini I wasn't posting a tale of woe anymore than you were. Breastfeeding can cause pain, often milk does leak, babies do need feeding sometimes hourly and usually throughout the night, if you don't feed a baby it probably will scream and unless you have a wet nurse or express which isn't always easy it pretty much is only the Mother who can feed it breast milk. It's the truth.
Generally my experience of breastfeeding was positive and happy as was my experience of formula feeding.

I still don't understand the homework comparison. I've never made any of my children do homework. I don't love the fact they have it as it takes up family time but it's their homework so they do it. My input is minimal.

Well yes Meow, using formula for ds2 has put me right off. I'm not creating elaborate stories. Actually ds2 has been hard work altogether.

Here's the thing. I absolutely support individual choice. But I also think that the factors influencing that choice are relevant. None of us make choices in a contextual vacuum. Our choices are influenced by many factors, only some of which we are conscious of. Those factors combine to contribute to currently low breastfeeding rates.

The NHS has a goal to increase breastfeeding to improve overall public health. Their success depends on becoming an influential factor in an existing decision making process. They want to be a disruptive factor - to change the way those decisions get made so that more women choose to breastfeed for longer.

That's a valid goal from a financial and a public health perspective, and it's a valid approach. They then need to look at what interventions, at what point, work. Is it leaflets alone? Is it information/recommendation from a health professional? How many times does the message need to be conveyed, on average, before it is effective?

And it's not an equal choice, in their eyes, so giving you equal information on each, and telling you or implying that they are equally weighted, would be a terrible approach from a behaviour change perspective. It would also be a lie. They don't believe the two choices are equal, so pretending otherwise would be counterproductive pandering.

Formula feeding is the norm, not a secret. No one is withholding information or preventing you from getting info on FF if you want it. They are not preventing you from FF. They are simply prioritising information about the choice they would prefer you to make.

I actually agree jassy.... I think they just need to get better at doing it, and at being sensitive when bf isn't possible, because sometimes it simply isn't.

As with all things in NHS (and indeed life) there needs to be more consistency, more standardisation of process and care so that more people see the caring patient lactation consultants and less people see the awful uncaring people who push an agenda regardless of the situation.

As for women in other cultures where bf is the norm, well I'm sure those women have horror stories have faced difficulties.

How many of us talk about these things in real life? I never talk about breastfeeding. The only people who know is dh and the midwives. Most people probably just think I didn't want to bf.

Jassy

I agree that it's important to consider the reasons why someone might not want to, like you said no decisions are made in isolation.

I think it's unfair to have a goal to change people's behaviour. You should have a goal to ensure people make educated decisions.

I don't think giving equal information suggests both are the same, you can still make the point that bf is in your opinion better without not giving info on ff.

I find it patronising that they want us to make a specific choice

Cats you know what I really said. Scroll back if you need clarification.

What on earth makes you think women make up horror stories so that they don't have to breastfeed?

Sadly, they do. I know that some women genuinely do have serious problems trying to establish breastfeeding. Unfortunately though, many women don't want to say 'I just couldn't be bothered with the hassle of doing it all' so they tell others that it was too painful/no supply etc. with dramatic stories to match.

I have helped women whose babies have latched straight on, had loads of milk, good family support, but then text me a few days in saying they're not carrying on as they want the baby to sleep all night/their mum wants the baby for the weekend/they don't want to do all the feeds. I then hear from others (and sometimes the women themselves, months down the line who seem to forget that I was there) that they had horrendous and painful problems which forced them to stop.
If people change their mind and decide to FF, that's up to them. But it is such a problem when people perpetuate the myth that breastfeeding is always painful, always inconvenient, and always a struggle. I wish they wouldn't.

I think it's unfair to have a goal to change people's behaviour.

----> if that was the stance a public health organisation had to take then - well - there would be absolutely no campaigns or promotion on anything that seeks to move the population towards better health outcomes.

I know that some women genuinely do have serious problems trying to establish breastfeeding.

Just highlighting this again.......

you can still make the point that bf is in your opinion better

IT'S. NOT. OPINION.

focus the goal should be to encourage an informed decision.

OhShutUpThomas what did you say then? And no ones said bf is always painful. I've said it was for me, and that combined with the hassle put me off

OhShutUpThomas I've said myself that bf has benefits so not sure what your point is? I was on about the opinion of the NHS if you had read the post.

Actually my opinions on BF have changed since I've been on MN and been on these threads (I was previously jorahmormont but I prefer this new name ). When I was really bitter (understandably if I do say so myself) about the lack of support I received and the way it impacted my ability to breastfeed, I was adamant that anyone who said "breast is best" was shaming formula feeding mums, bullying, etc etc. I realise now that I was in the depths of PND (part of which was triggered by inability to BF) and that contributed to my opinion, but these threads have changed my views on many things.

• People criticising formula companies aren't criticising formula feeding mums.
• It is possible to dislike formula companies while still being thankful for the existence of formula.
• The NHS is not bullying FF mums by promoting BF (however I stand by the fact that at the moment, the balance of promotion vs practical support is waaay off).
• Breastmilk is scientifically better for babies on a population level, as supported by many scientifically sound studies.
• Acknowledging that fact does not mean my daughter is less intelligent, less healthy or less fantastically wonderful than BF babies.
• Just because you can't walk into a nursery and tell the difference between the breastfed and the formula fed babies, it doesn't mean BF is pointless.
• Supporting each others' feeding choices is important. I support breastfeeding, and the right of any woman to breastfeed her baby anywhere, and if she is criticised for that I will stand up for her. In return, I would hope that if I was called selfish for formula feeding my child, she would stand up for me.
• The sanctimonious holier-than-thou breastfeeding advocates (of who there are few actually on MN, and none currently actively posting on this thread) are not representative of breastfeeding advocates, or breastfeeding mums, on the whole.
• The unscrupulous formula companies (so basically, all of them), and formula feeding mums who criticise/shame breastfeeders, are not representative of formula feeding mums on the whole.

Sorry for the essay, but I just wanted to defend the fact that these threads pop up often. Some turn bunfighty, some remain supportive, but I have definitely learned from them over the last eighteen months.

Well I can't speak for other women but how would you know it was painful if it wasn't iyswim? With my first it didn't even occur to me that bf might be painful. Even after it was I thought it would be better with my second,

I'll admit I was totally unprepared, I should have done my research more and had things in place but I certainly wasn't making it up.

Perhaps they say these things to justify it because they feel guilty. I know I've said "oh at least dh can help with feeds", "at least the baby might sleep better", to try to make myself feel better.

You really don't know what goes on behind closed doors, ds was born in Summer and I put on a Summer dress, painted a smile at the school gates but at home I was crying to dh.

People shouldn't scare other women to put them off bf I'd never intend to do that but at the same time if women aren't prepared for potential problems they might just stop?

Fantastic post ovaries

ovaries that should have said

Ovaries yes. Whenever one of these threads pop up could you please write that exact post every time right at the very start? That really is all anyone needs to say on the subject.

I think it's unfair to have a goal to change people's behaviour. You should have a goal to ensure people make educated decisions.

I think it's unfair and immoral to spend money on conditions that could be prevented, and allow more people to suffer and even die with conditions that would be less prevalent if people made different decisions.

In many things - and breastfeeding is definitely one - there is no such thing as an 'educated decision', based solely on fact and free of social and cultural context. The NHS is not presenting you with information on something you've never heard of before, giving you the facts and enabling a choice based purely on the facts. It is participating in a discussion with a huge amount of history, influences and opinion, not all of it accurate. It's competing with mothers who say there's no way you can breastfeed a big baby, partners who say they feel excluded, friends who say their breasts are only for their partner and they find breastfeeding disasteful.

In that context, trying to influence more people towards a decision that will save some women's lives, and improve the health of children, is absolutely a no-brainer.

Anything else would be pure pandering.

Ovaries, really excellent post. I think the nuance is so important here, and we all too often lose it.

Pyjama, yes. I think one of the things that led me to continue breastfeeding was that I knew it might be hard, because I had friends who'd been open in talking about their difficulties - and for some, how they'd got past those difficulties, and for others how they'd decided to partly or wholly move to FF instead. Knowing that it want necessarily going to be the warm fuzzy video version, the 'most women have no problems' and 'if you're doing it right it won't hurt' version was really helpful in the early days. It meant I didn't feel quite so isolated.

Someone recently asked me about bf and I told her that I'd found it painful but that not everyone does, I said that it can be hard to begin with but worth it in the end. I said it would be easier than making bottles. I also said even if she just does it in the beginning the colostrum is really good.

I don't think she'll make it bf because I can already see she won't have the support from her partner, mum or mil. She's already being torn in two her partner wants her to bf but isn't even being kind to her in her pregnancy, her mil already can't wait to 'take the baby'.

In many things - and breastfeeding is definitely one - there is no such thing as an 'educated decision', based solely on fact and free of social and cultural context. The NHS is not presenting you with information on something you've never heard of before, giving you the facts and enabling a choice based purely on the facts. It is participating in a discussion with a huge amount of history, influences and opinion, not all of it accurate. It's competing with mothers who say there's no way you can breastfeed a big baby, partners who say they feel excluded, friends who say their breasts are only for their partner and they find breastfeeding disasteful.

I do see your point but on the other hand, I also think why is only wanting your breasts for your partner not a valid thing? (That wasn't my reason). You can't bf a big baby, that's something that can be proven, but something like seeing your breasts as for your partner isn't as objective. I understand that decisions aren't without influence but...I don't necessarily see why that makes some of them not valid.

It's not immoral if the choice has been made by the person. I find it too authoritarian for the NHS to try to influence people.

Out of interest, how do you work out whether someone made an educated decision or if they were influenced? I'm curious if your opinion on that

I do see your point but on the other hand, I also think why is only wanting your breasts for your partner not a valid thing? (That wasn't my reason). You can't bf a big baby, that's something that can be proven, but something like seeing your breasts as for your partner isn't as objective.

I understand that decisions aren't without influence but...I don't necessarily see why that makes some of them not valid.

No one is saying that the choices aren't valid. From a bodily autonomy perspective, any choice is valid. It's simply that they aren't optimal from a public health perspective, and that's what the NHS is interested in. I was giving examples of some of the cultural factors influencing decision making on this - it isn't a straight educated choice.

I find it too authoritarian for the NHS to try to influence people.

I find it odd that you would expect medical professionals to not want to give people better health outcomes, without taking away those people's choices.

And the NHS is not taking away people's choices. It's trying to influence those choices by making sure people are fully informed. It is not witholding care from or sanctioning people who don't choose their preferred option. It is not forcing anyone to breastfeed against their will.

Out of interest, how do you work out whether someone made an educated decision or if they were influenced? I'm curious if your opinion on that

Education is a form of influence, really. It's one of the factors that influences decision making. I'm not sure what you think the NHS is doing that doesn't fall under the education / giving people information to inform their choices perspective.

TheCatsMeow - "you can't bf a big baby"? What the heck are you on about?

And why do you need "support" to make up a bottle of formula and feed it to your baby? Just follow the instructions on the carton! It's not rocket science. Honestly, it baffles me as to why those who choose formula seem to begrudge breastfeeding mothers the usually little support they receive and say that formula feeding mothers should get support too. What on earth for? I honestly do not understand why you think you need support to formula feed.