formula

[Emma2506]

Ok so I don't want to turn this into a whole ff vs bf war but I find it highly offensive to ff mums who can't collect advantage points/clubcard points, shops aren't allowed to have any offers on etc for formula. I understand it's the LAW but why is it acceptable to have deals on alcohol yet ff mums are penalised for choosing to ff or not being able physically able to bf? I know the excuse is shops promote breast feeding but I'm struggling to get my head around why a bf mum would buy formula just because it's on offer if she is doing well bf and it's FREE!

I think the train of thought, following the last few pages of this thread, is that there is an issue in society whern a woman chooses to formula feed without even trying to breast feed. Basically saying that the advertisement of formula has been so great that it has now stopped women from even trying to do what is naturally best for their baby because the alternative is seen as just as good.

writer I get that, but if women do realise that there are benefits to bf but still choose to ff, there's nothing wrong with that

As long as it's an educated choice

Jassy overbearing midwives and lack of information about bottle feeding.

The NHS is trying to bring about a large-scale change in behaviour - persistently low breastfeeding rates. That isn't done by handing out information on other approaches if people don't seek it. It's done by repeatedly presenting the information and the message they want people

As public health campaigns go, the breastfeeding one is relatively low-key. It's (rightly, IMO) nowhere near the highly emotive big-budget ad campaigns of children growing up without parents that have formed part of the Quit campaign. Every contact a woman with a child under 2 has with the NHS does not include an offer to refer to a breastfeeding specialist.

I wasnt given any information even though I said I wanted to try bf but was happy to ff.

Did you ask for FF information? If so, and were refused the information, the person who refused you was totally in the wrong. But if you didn't ask, why would they provide (readily available) information that would support an outcome that isn't the one they're aiming for?

I don't mind the government having a hand in it, making it illegal to ask a bf mother to move, bf support on the NHS etc. I just don't think that should be at the expense of those who don't want to/can't bf

What expense is there in the current approach?

What do you mean? I would find it irritating if after someone had been given the info on smoking and said "thanks but I don't want to quit" someone kept badgering them about it. That's how I feel

See my above comments. The anti-obesity and anti-smoking camapigns are much higher in terms of individual 'badgering', as well as the mass-market campaigning activity.

This is the quid pro quo. Choices we all make all cost the NHS money and lead to worse public health outcomes overall. It's quite right that they try to influence us into choices, where possible, that will lead to better outcomes. In exchange, we own the fact that the final choice is ours, that we've been informed (often repeatedly), and that regardless of our choice the NHS will continue to be there for us.

Basically saying that the advertisement of formula has been so great that it has now stopped women from even trying to do what is naturally best for their baby because the alternative is seen as just as good

I think advertising (and past generations of advertising) are part of it but culture plays a huge part. If you've never seen any of your friends breastfeed, if bottle feeding is the norm where you are and amongst the people you spend time with, then it's going to be an awful lot harder to buck the trend than if everyone you know at least started out breastfeeding. Particularly since any choice that 'bucks the trend' can be interpreted as rejecting something that is seen as normal/the right way. It's a really tough one.

People can have as much support as it is possible to get and it still won't work.

I did tons of research. I went to a class. I had a lactation consultant out the day I got home. Tongue tie snipped by day 5. A cranial osteopath. Domperidone, oats, fenugreek, nursing tea.
3 BF support groups a week.

It still didn't work. I cried pretty much every day and my DS is 6 months and he still latches for 20 mins before each bottle feed and I still feel like an utter failure. Every time I see how much I am letting down my son and making him fat stupid and ill I feel like I've been punched in the stomach.

It shouldn't be this hard! We all love our children and do what we can for the best.

I'm slowly working my way through the whole of this thread, but I find this topic really interesting. I'm a mummy of a premmie, who genuinely could not bf. No supply from me, no suckling reflex and tube fed from her side. I can honestly say the lactation "support" I got from my hospital was woofully lacking and consisted of a midwife expressing what little milk she could squeeze from my boobs! This sort of experience does not aid people desire to bf. I already knew bf would be a tricky road for me as I was not going to be off work for long, but all the "support" did for me was make me feel stressed and upset during an already distressing time.

Everyone knows that "breast is best", we have all heard it, but we should be free to make choices based on our own situations. And we should be supported in those decisions. I was in the end lucky to have a wise midwife (a different one) who sensibly counselled me that the situation was stressful enough and my daughter needed me rested and well, more than she needed me exhausted, stressed and forcing the bf issue. We went to formula and she thrived.

Ultimately if babies are fed cared for and loved, who cares what they are fed? Mummies (and indeed parents in general) should be given all the information, calmly sensibly and impartially and then supported with the choices they make.

Shantotto.... I felt exactly the same way.... Luckily now I see my healthy happy little lady and that guilt is no longer there. (Plenty of other guilts have replaced it but that one has gone!) ... We did our best, we tried our hardest, our children a warm, fed and loved. Sod what anyone else says xxx.

Muskateers, I agree with all of that except the 'impartially'; I think it is reasonable for a public health body to take a clear position on a public health matter where the evidence supports it, while still being sensitive to individual circumstances.

I'll always see it as a wasted opportunity. It's not only the health benefits but the convenience of having the best baby milk on tap at the right temperature. It's amazing really. The only benefit that I can think we all gained from formula is dh joining in feeds and I know he really felt part of things.

There is an issue going on with formula atm. The guidelines are to make Each bottle up fresh. This is very difficult especially with a newborn feeding on demand. You have to use boiling water as the formula powder isn't sterile, then cool the formula quickly. I've noticed people are adding powder to already cooled boiled water to save time, this isn't safe.

Yes Jassy, I think your right. Impartially was probably the wrong word. More sensitively and without judgment

I cheated and used ready mixed formula, not cheap but simple. Worked well for us.

Totally agree with you on that.

We used ready mixed after I went back to work and DH was on paternity leave with DS, particularly in the early days when we weren't used to it. Much simpler.

I'm desperately trying to get 3 month old DS2 to take the occasional bottle, and have no problem using formula rather than ebm for that's.He sees no reason to do this regardless of what's in the bottle. A bit maddening.

Culture is a very valid point. My mum and sisters breastfed, I didn't know anyone who bottle fed. When my baby was in special care for the first month, I was extremely stressed about possibly having to formula feed. I didn't know how to make it, what to buy, I couldn't ask my mum for help even! I'm guessingthat's what the idea of breastfeeding seems like if you've got no support, or worse, hostility. I don't think I'd have done it if, like my brave mum, every time I tried my mother stood over me telling me I was starving my baby!
In the end I successfully maintained feeding myself through pumping and expressing until baby happily latched on again at 3 weeks. But I had the confidence to persevere because of 3 other women's vast experience and shared knowledge. Don't think it would have happened without them

I'm not sure it's so much culture, as support. If I had people around me telling me this happens, she's fine, she will get it, maybe it would have been different. There wasn't it was simply an attitude of you will attempt to feed now, you will be made to feel useless because "well I supposed we had better tube her some formula, is there no expressed milk to give" and then at 3 am "right here's the pumping stuff get at it" "is that all you have managed?!" .....

Sounds horrible muskateer. I found it very frustrating on my first visit to special care, 14 hours after c section to be asked ' oh didn't you express any milk to bring down'. Well no, I had spent the day either asleep or crying and at no point did anyone tell me to express. Had so many difficulties with the different info given by scbu nurses and ward nurses, not to mention the 'walk of shame' from ward to scbu past all the 'breast is bear's posters. Some actual freaking help please, not posters!

Talking of pressure, I'm not sure hcps can win sometimes.

I've read so many times now on here women who've mixed fed or pumped until they got the hang of it. I was always under the impression once you'd stopped for a few day that was it, and that once you'd introduced a bottle or dummy that was it.

I remember speaking to a midwife all tearful saying I didn't know what to do and I was upsetting the baby by keep trying to get him latched on properly, how I'd tried nipple shields and the poor boy just didn't know what was going on (sounds all pathetic now), I felt I'd made a right pigs ear of the whole thing and that the best thing was just to bottle feed.

A bit of pressure would have done me good but instead she just said "it's your choice don't feel guilty", she probably didn't want to upset or pressure me but actually right then I could have done with a big push and some perspective.

He was so little and there was loads of time to keep trying.

Jassy because I think it's manipulative. It's trying to force people to do something they don't want.

I didn't ask for the info but as I was given bf info without asking I think it's wrong to not at least ask if I wanted ff info

I don't smoke so I'm not aware of the badgering but I do fee badgering people, particularly when they've made their stance clear, is wrong

Shantotto your post brought a lump to my throat :( I remember feeling the way you're feeling now, just over a year ago.

You are not letting your son down. He will be absolutely fantastic and it is so clear that you care so much about him. The milk a baby has for their first six months/a year does matter, before anyone jumps down my throat, but it's such a tiny tiny part of what makes them into the people they become in the grand scheme of things.

DD is such a tiny little thing compared to her friends, despite being FF - because she eats healthily and is constantly on the go. She's developmentally ahead and so intelligent - I could be vain and claim genetics on that one, but I know it's also because we've invested so much time into working on things with her. You can't walk into her nursery classroom and point out which babies are breastfed and which were formula fed.

(Before anyone tears me to shreds, I'm not saying breast milk isn't scientifically proven to be the optimum for babies; I'm stating a fact. You seriously can't tell who was fed which).

Parenting is hard enough without getting drawn into a battle that is, essentially, between the formula companies and the government. Formula marketing makes it harder for breastfeeding to be accepted and promoted. Government health promotion makes formula feeding mums feel like shit. We all get defensive about our choices, whether to FF or BF, we argue and blame each other, and the real culprits get away scot-free. We're all pawns in this chess game, so tearing each other (or ourselves) to shreds makes no sense.

You're doing a brilliant job and I'm so sorry that you tried so hard and were still unable to, I can see from your post how much that upsets you :( have an un-mumsnetty hug

Erm breast is best not bear.....

I totally get that, the wall of shame. As if it's not hard enough being on a maternity ward without your child next to you huh?

We really do need to lift each other up, none of these choices are easy, no parenting path is easy. We are all just doing our best not to screw it up.

I can see the thread has moved on from the original op but - I formula feed. It doesn't bother me I can't get points on formula, or staff discount at supermarkets.

I started off breastfeeding. I went to a breastfeeding clinic when my baby was 6 days old. Physically breastfeeding was going swimmingly. However when it came down to it, my mental health was being affected. So I stopped. I felt guilty for stopping but my baby is 7 months old now and I don't feel guilty, haven't done so for a long time.

I feel I made the best choice for me and my child, don't really care what anyone thinks, it isn't their business.

Muskateersmummy - that was my experience too, with the total lack of support for breastfeeding on the antenatal ward.

Before DS was born, I was determined to breastfeed and had read up on it at length. I honestly thought it would just work for us. Anyway, various factors arising from a very difficult birth, and me having no idea how to put theory into practise on real, huge breasts with flat nipples, meant that he wouldn't latch.

I was trying for hours to figure out how to latch him on, as nobody was free to help me. All the midwives seemed to think that someone else had already shown me, and I had to explain countless times that no, I hadn't been fully conscious when he was born, so he hadn't latched on then, and no, he hadn't yet fed.

The following morning a doctor turned up and said "right, if this baby hasn't fed, we'd better give him a bottle." She thrust a leaflet in my hand about ff. I cried and said I still wanted to try bf.

Then they brought me a pump and told me to give that a go. I got a couple of drops of colostrum, if that, and couldn't get it into DS as it just got stuck on the side of the bottle. Again, nobody could help me. They kept us in another night. DS still hadn't fed and was jaundiced, I thought I was losing my mind.

The following day, they discharged us. A midwife lied on the discharge notes and said she'd seen DS feed properly - presumably to clear a bed. When we got home I hired a hospital grade pump and set about getting expressed milk into my son.

The upshot of all this was that he wouldn't latch until he was three months old. In that time he was readmitted to hospital twice with weight loss, we had to do formula top-ups, and I had mastitis four times. I was also very anxious and depressed, partly due to the three-hourly pumping schedule.

Thankfully it turned out brilliantly in the end. Once he eventually latched we went on to bf until he was a year old. But I honestly think that our problems in those early days were partly down to a complete lack of bfing support.

I'm confident in asking for help but I still struggled to get any. The helplines were useless and usually rang out anyway. Would someone less confident have given up sooner? Almost definitely. Would I do the same again in the same situation? No.

To me, breastfeeding was and is really, crucially important - but there needs to be more practical support available. Leaflets don't cut it. And breastfeeding cafes, drop-ins etc vary so much by area. There was nothing in walking distance of my house at all and I didn't have the option to drive.

After that experience I can see why so many women give up in the early weeks. Once it's established, bf is the most natural thing in the world, but sadly we're not yet in a culture where its problems, pitfalls and so on are a known part of everyday life. I had no friends or relatives who'd been there and who could help. If I had, I'm sure I could've established bf much sooner.

Jassy because I think it's manipulative. It's trying to force people to do something they don't want.

That's a stretch. It's trying to influence someone towards a decision with more positive outcomes on a population level for both mother and child, when that choice is made by a minority of people.

I fail to see the 'force' there. Influence, yes. Force? It's not even particularly strong influence, considering some of the ways to influence behaviour.

I didn't ask for the info but as I was given bf info without asking I think it's wrong to not at least ask if I wanted ff info

Why, when it's not the NHS's goal to increase FF rates? Where is your agency in this - why are you expecting to be spoon fed and have any future choices not just validated but enabled, regardless of whether it's best?

If the information wasn't readily available I might have more sympathy for your position. However when googling 'NHS formula' I got only up to typing 'for' before pages of web links to NHS information on bottle feeding came up - none of it judgemental. I'm struggling to see why the NHS should be pushing something on pregnant women that it knows have worse public health outcomes. How is that responsible behaviour from a public authority?

I don't smoke so I'm not aware of the badgering but I do fee badgering people, particularly when they've made their stance clear, is wrong

I don't smoke either, however I'm aware of some of the approaches used. It's part of the Making Every Contact Count approach - the concept that, every time someone who eg smokes or has a problem with alcohol has contact with a medical practitioner, they are encouraged in various ways to change their behaviours. Breastfeeding is rightly not included in this approach. A bit of 'breast is best' and literature at a couple of midwife appointments isn't really the same, and neither is it 'force'.

Are you content for the NHS to come under even more pressure when effective public health campaigns could prevent it (even if you ignore the morality of enabling choices with worse outcomes without trying to influence people's decisions). How would you like to pay for that - higher taxes or a more limited service from the NHS?

I tend to think there's a social contract. The NHS does an awful lot to keep us alive and as healthy as possible. It excludes none of us based on our behaviours or conditions.But it gets to give us advice on how to be healthier and reduce our risk of future illness. That seems incredibly fair to me.

Actually, the thing that bugs me most about breastfeeding public health campaigns is that they focus almost exclusively on the benefits to the baby, and marginalise the benefits to the person who is doing all the damn work. It really plays into the broader discourse around pregnancy and birth where what is good for the mother is automatically treated as secondary and/or irrelevant.