To think taxpayers shouldn't pay for people to learn English?

[angelos02]

£20 million to be spent on this. If you move to a country you ensure you can speak the language surely? It is being spent on female muslims not that I think this is relevant.

YABU.

Though I'm a little baffled by it. Apparently money has been cut for ESL courses by this government. Cameron also mentioned that it's aimed at the many women who are prevented from learning English and integrating with wider society by their husbands and I'm wondering how on earth these women will be reached. Having the courses funded and available isn't going to magically change the attitudes that have prevented them from being allowed to learn English, if this is what's happening.

I'm a bit surprised to find anyone objects to the idea of teaching any people here the native language, looks like a win-win idea to me. Though I am also a bit concerned that Cameron is just spinning headlines. He's not shown much interest in increasing public funds for any education before, far from it, what's he up to?

Cameron also mentioned that it's aimed at the many women who are prevented from learning English and integrating with wider society by their husbands

Is it just me, or does it seem this is tackling symptoms, not causes ? Surely the most effective (and visible) solution is to teach these men what our secular (pah ) democracy considers acceptable behaviour.

Or is there a more sinister motive underpinning the "poor women" narrative ?

Seems to ignore men, and treat women as the problem is to perpetuate the Abrahamic sexism we thought we were defeating.

Or maybe I'm overthinking this ?

If people are really willing to integrate, they should learn by themselves, there are enough resources and help in this country.

from experience it just isn't that easy. You don't know where to begin to look if you don't speak the langauge.

If you're not allowed to leave the house then how are people meant to get to the internet?

I've known 'sewing circles' that women were allowed to, and health info etc was circulated during them. But it demands that people reach out first to these isolated and often traumatised women.

It's in the UK's long term interests to ensure they are integrated. Stops more extremism and the creation of enclaves of completely separate lives.

*Schwabischeweihnachtskanne Mon 18-Jan-16 12:30:07
Nowt wrong with speaking your own language at home or even out in public. Its not rude to speak in a language people don't understand - its rude to try and listen in to someone else's conversation! exactly Natsku

Zorion would you seriously sit in a cafe in France trying to have a private conversation with your DH in school French form 10/20/30 years ago, or in a cafe in Vietnam/Brazil trying to hold a private conversation (as in not involving anyone else) in phrase book Vietnamese/ Portuguese just in case somebody wants to listen in on you? That is just a little bit loopy!*

Sorry, i know we've moved on a bit, but just wanted to say, I'm not loopy, I didn't fully read the PPs example and then rushed off to work. No, obviously I'd speak in English in that situation. I meant that if I and my native English speaking DH are talking to, say for example our son's teacher in her native language, we speak in her language even if there is a part of the conversation just for us, eg. teacher to us "are you guys free for parents evening on tuesday" me to dh "can you go, i have a meeting on tuesday." All of it happens in the teachers language.. That PPs example (having reread it) was weird!

YABU - completely U

I'm a little baffled by it. Apparently money has been cut for ESL courses by this government

You and me both. In fact I find myself wondering whether DC has any real intention of implementing this, or whether - given the issues in the headlines at the moment - he simply wants a headline which suggests he's "doing something about integration"

I've worked with lots of women in the past who have been brought to the UK by men who then don't want them to integrate or be able to have any kind of life.
I welcome anything that is out there to support these women....and no they are not all Muslim either....a variety of religions and none.

The issue of course will be getting to these women but I have dealt with that in the past by meeting up with them at baby clinics etc. No reason that language classes cannot be attached to groups or organisations these women attend regularly.

"Female muslims"? A rather odd way of putting it.

I think it's a brilliant idea to offer English instruction, though I wouldn't target one particular group. There seems to be an unpleasant undertone of anti-Muslim sentiment behind the announcement.

However, English classes for all immigrants should certainly be available. Money very well spent IMO. I do rather wonder whether anyone opposed to this scheme has actually learned a second language to any degree of proficiency. And whether they have done so as an adult. It is not easy, to say the least.

I think it's a wonderful idea.

I doubt all the Syrian's have time to swot up whilst the bombs are dropping. Their first thought, rightly so should be to get out not oh shit I better get the text books out!

I quite like it when people talk in other languages (but then I'm used to it growing up - my Dad spoke most dialects of his native country which are unintelligible to people who speak the "official" language - including me !).

However, I wonder if they - and indeed people on this thread) realise how incredibly vulnerable to modern high-technology ?

We often see a group of men in our local Costa who speak in an Eastern European language. I would have made an educated guess (balance of probabilities) at Ukrainian. However, use of Google translate suggested Lithuanian (which in hindsight made more sense. We had a Lithuanian cleaner for a while who had several friends locally).

Of course, if we ever needed to have a conversation with them, we could use Google translate

Just writing that reminded me that in HHGTTG, Arthur Dent spent a long time learning bird language, just to discover the main topics of bird song was power-to-weight-ratios .

Yes good idea for all immigrants but it doesnt mean fluency. I did classical Arabic for a few years i don't recall much now, and GCSE Spanish but im not fluent in speech i'd recognise more on paper.

My sil learnt English in south asia, in school.she can read mail and her kids school letters etc but she cant verbally speak fluently. I doubt she would understand sarcastic jokes either. Fluency will only come via work or going through the education system with English speakers. My Arabic teacher told me as much, he said living in the country and mixing with the people whose language you wish to learb is the best way to attain fluency.

lurking my husband employed a hungarian worker because he had the skills others needed training some how they managed to communicate even though the hungarian had minimal English. He usedhis phone to translate in the workshop. After a year they had picked up quite a lotof basic phrases from each other. its not impossible if ppl are accepting of each other , and are patient

When my Dad arrived here in the 60s, within a week he had taken his driving test (my Mum interpreted) and had signed up for English lessons. That was his order of priority. And while he could never pass for a native, and hasn't really swallowed Shakespeare, his English is probably the best I have ever heard from someone who came to the UK as an adult.

Of course in the 60s, he was shunned as a "foreigner" and ended up on tea and lunch breaks with the Indians and West Indians. Hence my smattering of Hindi, and love of Reggae . Almost every one he started work with went on to start their own business.

With these things I imagine the society I live in both ways -

one, with immigrants unable to speak to me, to access the same things I do, and so not integrating, pushing their kids forward to speak for them, blank looks if I ask for help or offer them a hand.

and one where we can have a chat together in the playground, they can access all the services I do, and I can in return benefit from all the new things they bring, and their kids are out playing because all the parents are friend rather than being kept in because no-one can properly explain they've been invited over for tea

I know which village I'd prefer to live in, and I believe that this is exactly how taxes should be spent - in order to make life more pleasant for everyone in the country.

The problem is that when women are confined to the home and allowed out for only very few activities, they won't have a chance to pick up the language by interacting with native speakers.

I think its a good idea

There is a certain irony in this policy . About 18 months ago funded ESOL provision was radically cut, a couple of years previously it was made chargeable to all bar those on means tested benefits. Many dependent women have no idea whether their husbands are claiming benefits or what their household income might be so would not be able to produce the necessary documentary proof to access classes. They may lack independence and self confidence which is not their cultural background and I fear this policy will not be sufficient to change the situation of these women.

It causes huge strain on services the police, justice, health, education constantly having to provide interpreters

Tamponlady, that's precisely why this initiative is a good idea - provided that it's not limited to Muslim women. The more people learn the language, the fewer interpreters we will need, the more economically productive they will become in other ways as they will be able to get work more easily.

and it's not as if they would be wasting their time, given the status of English in the world. They would learn the premier, if not only language that matters in science, technology, medicine and business.

Unlike someone who found themselves suddenly living in Estonia (for example). It's just a fact of the world, but Estonian is a much less transferable skill.

But it's ok for immigrants to pay thousands and thousands of pounds to the border agency?

pilpiloni indeed. 20 million is a drop in the ocean compared to what the government are making from immigrants. Long live application fees ...

Yep. £650 spouse visa, £1600 indefinite leave £1005 nationality application. Heaven forfend you should lose your passport. £260 for a new stamp (and no passport for 6 months).

Shame my immigrant husband speaks fluent English really

ESOL classes have been free (the ones put on by LAs) for as long as I can remember - so at least 25 years. I have worked abroad (not as an ex pat) and would have loved the chance to have free language classes - I think it's a brilliant idea.

Given that we've had provision for years, which is never over-subscribed nationally, it does raise a question of why, still, we spend a fortune on translators and interpreters - something else that has never been free (as in, paid for by the state) anywhere I've been - but that is a separate question.

Hefzi ESOL is certainly not free across the country.

Hefzi, ESOL ceased to be free for all several years ago and can now only be delivered by a limited number of providers, certainly not universally available across the country.