Do you know any misogynistic women?

[ovaryhill]

I've been reading a bit about this and wondered how common it is.
Has anyone had any experience of this?
I know at least one woman who behaves as if she hates other women and is very derogatory about women in general, agrees that wearing short skirts means you're asking for trouble kind of thing, sees other women as a threat and would prefer to work for men
Any opinions or experience?

Books! i like to talk about books

Started a book club and guess what we talk about

Its not books

I don't think that saying you prefer the company of men means that you're deliberately ruling out 50% of the population. I, personally, don't make a conscious decision to have more male than female friends. I just do. I don't think that makes me 'superior' either.

I think the 'safety' aspect can come into it for women who prefer men's company as well. Some of the worst bullying, judgement, exclusion and betrayal that I have ever experienced has come from women. I have never experienced that from the men I know. Perhaps I feel 'safer' with men knowing that I'm less likely to find out that they've actually been talking about me behind my back or pushing me out of groups.

"a typical man are different to the worries of typical women - especially when it comes to feeling judged by others."

I do think that is part of it. Women often spend a lot of time justifying their actions perhaps because they subconsciously know that they will be judged.

I do also think girls are more intense in their relationships and that this comes from expecting such a lot of emotional support from each other.

The flip side of that though is that receiving emotional support is wonderful. I mean look at MN. Yes it can be judgey but also incredibly supportive.

"What do we make of teen-girl nastinesses re misogynistic behaviour and bullying? Dd has certainly suffered a lot from school 'friends' and these boards are rammed with troubled mums re the abusive stuff their dds get at the hands of other girls. Does that qualify?"

I do wonder about this too. I wonder if we are more likely to tell our boys to "get on with it" rather than trying to intervene. The nasty behaviour within a boys football team, for example, can be as bad as anything girls do to each other, but generally boys are told to "man up". There are loads of threads about boys being bullied by other boys- but it's only with girls that we say they are bitchy, or talk about Queen Bees and all the rest.

Pannn, I said upthread that there are horrendous problems with dd's year group amongst the boys. I don't think the positive female behaviour is talked about and I know for a fact that the negative male behaviour is dismissed, and re branded as banter.

Exactly Bertrand! Boys are taught to not expect such close relationships. I think it was Lise Elliot who said we need to teach girls to be less dependent on such intense relationships.

But also as you say there is a lot of confirmation bias going on. DS had a male friend who kept doing the hot and cold act, one day friends, one day total exclusion. It went on for ages as DS was quite upset but in all my time discussing this with people no one ever ventured the word "bitchy", "catty", or said "that's just what boys do" in the same way they would do with a girl.

I am asking though specifically (nowt to do with boys behaviour) 'is that girl-based nastiness example of misogynistic behaviour'? I'm not sure how it can't be, as it's aimed specifically at young girls just for being who they are.

And poss provides a blue print for how to behave toward adult women peers when they grow up.

in my experience women who say they prefer the company of men tend to be suggesting this makes them superior to other women- that women are lightweight and trivial and not really worth bothering with, while men talk about serious things.

That's absolutely not the case with me.

I have a few female friends but not ones I see that often and they are more family friends really, but we have some really deep and interesting conversations and I would love more people of both sexes to talk about politics, religion, make-up, clothes and all sorts of issues. I most certainly don't think men talk about serious things and women are lightweight and trivial.

I just find I click more with men, well they click with me more, but I'm willing to concede that there is something I do which makes it harder for women to take to me. I think that because of a few bad experiences I change my behaviour slightly around women whereas with men I'm more natural. So yes, self-fulfilling prophecy probably.

I had a recent bad experience with a couple of women who went out of their way to exclude me. I'm probably looking out for that behaviour more and wouldn't notice it as much if men did it to me due to past issues.

Very interesting discussion and it is making me think through a lot of things.

Actually, I would love to know the ratio of boys to girls in threads about bullying. I bet it's 50:50.

It's just the language that's different.

is that girl-based nastiness example of misogynistic behaviour?

Pannn, yes and a lot of it comes down to that there are so many more negative stereotypes surrounding girls' behaviour to choose from. So many different negative judgements that have cultural backup.

So not only is it easier to pick a negative stereotype to throw at a girl you don't like but you can do so with the comforting feeling that you are going with the flow of society.

U2, yes, I wonder if I am more 'on guard' around women because of past experiences.

" I mean look at MN. Yes it can be judgey but also incredibly supportive."

See, I don't think I would come here for support. I tend to come here for a bit of a laugh at some of the silly threads or for discussions (heated or otherwise!) about topics I find interesting.

"It's just the language that's different

Do you think the type of bullying is different as well?"

I'm not sure. I can't decide whether I really think it is, or whether it's just that i have internalized the received wisdom that it is.

Certainly the behaviour I have seen in my ds's football team would have been called bitchy if it had been a netball team!

From my very limited experience as an ex dinner lady, to infant school children the bullying is no different

I would say that boys were slightly more likely to hit but little ones arent very good with their words and they cant think of another way of retalieating

And i do mean slightly, girls also reacted physically

"Er... I've always found I get on better with men. But the very occasional woman I 'click' with is better... but I always tried to make female friends throughout my 20's and really struggled."

Yep, same here. I think the reason I can't make female friends (haven't had any close female friends for a few years now) is that women tend to want to become very close friends and form small groups that exclude others. It's like you're either 'in' or 'out' straight away, whereas men can have wider groups of friendly acquaintances. I think not having any sisters doesn't help.

I'm a feminist by the way.

""I get on better with men" brigade (and I used to say the same) - you're making sexist statements just by implying that people have certain qualities/personalities purely by virtue of their sex."

No, it's based on past experiences. In the pas ten years, I've had better friendships with men than with women. That's all. I'm not saying that I prefer men to women.

"that women tend to want to become very close friends and form small groups that exclude others.." yes that quite a teen-girl thing I'd noticed, immense peer pressure and punishments if you are different.

"I'm a shy person anyway but I'm even more shy around men."

I think that's quite common and comes from the sexes being quite separate in childhood, girls playing only with girls and mainly seeing your friends' mothers and female teachers. Despite having more male friends than female friends, I'm more comfortable with female strangers than male strangers. I'd choose to sit next to a woman on the bus for example.

TheseBedroomWalls Why do all the women who prefer men to women hang out on Mumsnet?

Why don't they hang out on MENS FORUMS??

Oh yeah, the men won't want them! And they know that.

What a nasty, bullying comment! Especially considering how PP's, incuding myself, have stated we'd love more female friends but struggle to make them/be accepted by women. Seems the effect continues on MN!

Actually I wish I knew MNers in real life - the women I meet/have known just seem totally different. Or perhaps I just haven't got to know them well enough - but how do I, if they already have loads of friends and no interest in more, or no interest in me?

To other posters who tend to have more male friends - what are your friends like? And what about their friends? It has occurred to me that my male friends tend to have more female friends than average, and they seem to be willing to talk about emotional things (to female friends). They are not "blokey blokes" (sorry, not sure how else to put it!). I've got a feeling we may be bonding on some level of not fitting into society/being expected to hide a lot of feelings, rather than the "men vs women" arguments being put forward here.

"To other posters who tend to have more male friends - what are your friends like? And what about their friends? It has occurred to me that my male friends tend to have more female friends than average, and they seem to be willing to talk about emotional things (to female friends). They are not "blokey blokes" (sorry, not sure how else to put it!). I've got a feeling we may be bonding on some level of not fitting into society/being expected to hide a lot of feelings, rather than the "men vs women" arguments being put forward here."

Yup, that's me too. I would say my group of friends is maybe a collection of 'outsiders'.

I have a mixture. Some have a lot of female friends and some don't. (Including some blokey blokes) I know a lot of them through uni/work/hobbies and we chat about all sorts of things.

Gwenhwyfer
"I think the reason I can't make female friends (haven't had any close female friends for a few years now) is that women tend to want to become very close friends and form small groups that exclude others. It's like you're either 'in' or 'out' straight away, whereas men can have wider groups of friendly acquaintances. I think not having any sisters doesn't help."

Interesting point Gwen.
I also think women tend to form very close personal friendships with other women (which if that's what you're looking for in a friendship, fine), but when they fall out, they really fall out badly. How often have we seen threads where a woman is going "non-contact" with a "toxic" former best friend, because the friend perhaps didn't give the requisite emotional support during some personal crisis they were having?

In general, men's friendships are not as personal by comparison (I have friends of 25-30 years standing and I wouldn't dream of divulging details of my sex life/marriage/finances to them, nor they to me) but nor do we expect the same level of emotional input or support from our friends. You can kind of dip in and out of a friendship with a man in a way you probably couldn't do with a woman. Maybe some women prefer that dynamic than the intensity of a close female friendship. I don't think it makes them bad women or bad feminists.

However, I do agree with Bertrand that there are women who overtly advertise their preference for male friendships because they think it gives them more intellectual or professional gravitas.