To wonder what your views are on 'working class' accents

[Timri]

And think people need to learn the difference between the words correct and standard
Inspired by a comment by somebody saying they didn't look down on anybody's accent, but hated words being pronounced 'incorrectly' such as 'bovvered'.
Uhm, it's called th fronting and it's one of the central features of a cockney accent FFS.
Please tell me I'm not alone in this?

but to me that isn't really an accent, We all have an accent. In fact we all have our own unique idiolect. No person's speech is exactly the same given that our vocal tracts are unique.

Generally Scottish people who go to Scottish public schools have Scottish accents. I know plenty of them. Scottish doctors and Scottish lawyers have Scottish accents. It's actually quite simple.

Yes this is what I meant, but you put it much more succinctly!

My Mother always corrected our speech and we were also made to walk with books on our head to improve posture. DH speaks with real gravitas and has a RP accent. We live in the North now and do not have the local accent at all.

We are therefore perceived as posh and the Mums at the local primary school were deeply suspicious of my southern voice. Once they got to know me it was fine and I have become very good friends with three of them though our Dc left that school ages ago. Their nickname for me was The Duchess.

We bought a new car recently as our beloved old car was not worth repairing.We bowled up with DH in his dreadful 15 year old coat 'looking like a hobo' to quote DS. The salesmen were hardly falling over themselves to assist but once DH spoke they treated us very well.

Personally I don't give a fig how people speak as long as they are nice. My background is very poor but my Mother was from money lost and I think she thought speaking properly whatever that is was important. She did fail in that when tipsy I roll my R's with a bit of a burr as I grew up rurally.

Alisvolatpropiis, fair enough.

It just sounded like one of these arbitrary MN "MC criteria". Nearly half of people go to university now, from all walks of life and ranges of academic ability. Going to university does not change anyone's class, or their children's.

Quite true, Aye.

I find the class system fascinating, possibibly because I'm not English.

When going for job interviews in England, I've had interviewers comment in surprise that I don't sound very Welsh, as though everyone from Wales talks like Tom Jones

I find the class system fascinating, possibibly because I'm not English.

Me too, but more in fascination of the convoluted ways people define the criteria in order to include/exclude themselves/others from whatever class suits their agenda.

It's good to be polite, kind, well-mannered, educated, have a stable and interesting job, committed to your family, sensible with money, have interests and hobbies, nice friends and have a fit and healthy lifestyle and a safe home that suits your needs. Not because that makes you "middle class", but because it's a recipe for a secure and happy life. Class shouldn't come into it.

But that's a different thread!

"Going to university does not change anyone's class, or their children's."

I disagree.

Tali, not really. Not everyone in Newcastle had a Geordie accent. There may be traces but I was in school with Lady XYZ in private school etc - just because you are in the NE doesnm't mean you have the accent just as just because you live in Central London doesn't mean you speak like the "yoof" in the comps.

What i do seem to have is a very adaptive way of speaking - the children will say within a week of being on holiday I am speaking like those around me sometimes. If you have that skill of changing how you speak to work for those around you then it can be useful. It may relative to having a wide range. I have a 3 octave singing voice range whichi s very rare and I sing every day and give about 50 talks a year so my voice is a huge part of what I am and can be used to persuade, negotiate, seduce, gain business and all the rest.

Aye that's what I mean, I read that pre WW2 you could tell what class a man was by the type of hat he wore. Bonkers!

"I disagree"

Gwenhwyfar, please elaborate. I'm genuinely interested.

I had quite a strong accent at primary school. Then got a scholarship to a private school and somehow without thinking ended up speaking differently.

I am still the same person. But some people, from similar background to me, have referred to me as posh.

Gwenhwyfar, especially given the hundreds of thousands of people who have both a degree and a "working-class accent", ie, one from outside of the south East and London area.

There is a big difference between accent and dialect though. It's rather convenient though to just blame it on prejudice - if it wasn't important to speak or write correctly nobody would both with English language at school.

"Going to university does not change anyone's class, or their children's."

If this is true, it's the most telling difference between the class system in the UK (just England perhaps) and many other countries, especially the US.

I have that flat South London accent and I sound like bleedin Pauline Fowler off that Eastenders. Thank God we dont all sound the same, its part of our national heritage IMHO.

On university it depends. If you go to London Met you will develop your uneducated London accent and find it fairly easy to mix with others who will get you into ISIS. If you go to Oxford University you might well work on the original ISIS magazine and probably will change class. We have a pecking order of universities in the UK.

Also when people go to university they get a chance to move away and to change themselves (just as going go grammar school used to do) so a good few people do move class through the route of university and indeed change how they speak.

(I wish Cameron wouldn't say "gunna" instead of "going to" - always grates on me. His family should have word with him about that one)

Also when people go to university they get a chance to move away and to change themselves

Why would someone from X lovely and nice city in the regions want to move [ to London ] and "change themselves"? You can get a very good job and have a very nice life in other cities too.

This is my point. It's so ignorant to suggest that because someone has a regional accent that they are incapable of speaking or writing correctly. BBC News/R4 is a perfect example. And they aren't the exception to the rule! Most people with a decent education can use the English language correctly.

I'm going to ignore the ISIS reference!

On university it depends. If you go to London Met you will develop your uneducated London accent and find it fairly easy to mix with others who will get you into ISIS. If you go to Oxford University you might well work on the original ISIS magazine and probably will change class. We have a pecking order of universities in the UK.

Also when people go to university they get a chance to move away and to change themselves (just as going go grammar school used to do) so a good few people do move class through the route of university and indeed change how they speak.

I went to one of the top universities in the UK/ world, that has not changed my class, it did not drastically change me or they way I speak.

Regional accents tell you nothing about a person's class?

Regional accents tell you nothing about a person's class?

Not sure if you're asking or not, bit no they don't. Because there are hundreds of thousands of people who are not "working class" in the regions of the United Kingdom.

It wasn't a question I just pressed ? instead of full stop.

I do love a good female 'black country' accent! But many people hate it!
I also love a good Suffolk/Norfolk accent as it reminds me of home!

On university it depends. If you go to London Met you will develop your uneducated London accent and find it fairly easy to mix with others who will get you into ISIS. If you go to Oxford University you might well work on the original ISIS magazine and probably will change class.

What does ISIS stand for here? I assume something different from the usual meaning, and this little snippet I've quoted isn't quite as batshit insane as it first looks.

Badlad, the River Isis runs through Oxford

LOL. Thanks. I see it's also the name of one of the student magazines as well.

Apologies DeoGratias. I hope it's consolation than when I thought you were on glue, naturally I had in mind the most expensive glue available.