To wonder what your views are on 'working class' accents

[Timri]

And think people need to learn the difference between the words correct and standard
Inspired by a comment by somebody saying they didn't look down on anybody's accent, but hated words being pronounced 'incorrectly' such as 'bovvered'.
Uhm, it's called th fronting and it's one of the central features of a cockney accent FFS.
Please tell me I'm not alone in this?

[Gwenhwyfar]

""I disagree"

Gwenhwyfar, please elaborate. I'm genuinely interested."

Just my opinion really. I suspect we're not going to agree about this. Everybody has their own definition of class so you either use one standard definition such as the government's or you accept that people see things differently. For me, higher education is one of the main features of class so I can't see anyone with higher education as working class whatever that person's occupation or however much they would like to think of themselves as working class. It's just a personal opinion that I'm entitled to.

[Gwenhwyfar]

"Rose Leslie is a Scottish aristocrat. She has the accent that goes with that.
Generally Scottish people who go to Scottish public schools have Scottish accents. "

I've just Googled her, having never heard of her before, and her accent (or at least the one she usses in interviews) is English:

[Mrsfrumble]

I grew up in the midlands. I never developed a strong accent, and then lived in London for 16 years so the only "giveaway" that I'm not a southerner is my short vowels (bath instead of barth).

DH is from Surrey and really pissed me off recently when I overheard him correcting DS's pronunciation, telling him "castle is wrong, it's pronounced caRstle". I spoke up and told DS that it wasn't a case of right or wrong, just that people from different places pronounce words in different ways. DH rolled his eyes. It's not a big deal, but it bothers me more than it should that he thinks the way I speak is "wrong".

[derxa]

Rose Leslie is a Scottish aristocrat. She has the accent that goes with that. Yes the Scottish aristocrat accent is RP English. I did not make that point clearly.

[Charley50]

I love Midlands accents. just sayin'

[Charley50]

Especially Brummie.

[AyeAmarok]

"Yes the Scottish aristocrat accent is RP English."

No, people who spend their formative years in a private school in the South of England sound RP English.

Had she gone to Gordonston, she'd sound different.

[SenecaFalls]

Here's Rose Leslie with a Hebridean accent.

The older woman is a good example of a posh Scottish accent.

[pourmeanotherglass]

I like the Brummie accent too. I'm not so keen on the Bristol one (where I live).

[laurierf]

I have an overly scouse accent for a female

I do love a good female 'black country' accent! But many people hate it!

I get that women tend to have higher pitched voices then men…. but what do you mean by a 'female accent'? Are women from Liverpool really less 'scouse-sounding' than men?

[Sameshitdiffname]

Yes they are laurier they tend to have a softer accent.

[Brioche201]

So are people like Alan Sugar (southern) , Ken Morrison (northern) working class?

[derxa]

I watched the Rose Leslie interview. She sounds just like the girls from my DSs's school. An RP accent but a young RP accent. She sounds great.

[UninventiveUsername]

At uni I knew a girl and a boy from Liverpool and to me there was no difference in their accents (apart from their voices obviously) and I'm usually good at noticing these things. I haven't met any other Liverpudlians to have listened for a sex accent divide!

[Alisvolatpropiis]

Brioche, depends on whether you think a person can change their own class.

If you do, then no they're not. If you don't, then yes they are.

Both have working class roots, not sure about Morrison but Sugar seems to be very proud of achieving what he has done from his working class starting point

[Sameshitdiffname]

Scouse girls tend to have a slightly softer accent on the way of the way we pronounce the 'achh' sound if that makes sense?

[Timri]

Gwenhwyfar
That's called an intrusive R, it actually happens with non-rhotic accents (so accents that don't pronounce their Rs)

So for example if you were to say 'India is' it sounds like you're saying 'India ris'
I guarantee that the vast majority of people who do this don't even realise, I would go as far as to say they would out and out deny they did it until it was pointed out to them.

(That's what happened to me, I used to work with an American guy and he pointed out that we tend to say Rs in everything I thought he was quite mad because as far as I was aware, I didn't really pronounce R at all. Then I realised I do the intrusive R. As does everyone I know)

Sorry that was quite long

[FrustratedFrugal]

Timri thanks for explaining the intrusive R. I'm a non-native English speaker and have always wondered why people do that. My daughter's last name ends with an A and lots of people pronounce it -rrr.

[wasonthelist]

Timri - Do you know the name for the failure to pronounce R when it's present? I am thinking of the SE tendency to pronounce bRoadcast as "Bordcarst" - missing the first R and adding one later?

[Imustgodowntotheseaagain]

alis John Prescott would be another good example. Is he still working class now that he's a peer? Or Dagenham-born George Carey, the former Archbishop of Canterbury.

[Alisvolatpropiis]

Same as my previous answer, Imust. I know less about whether either of the two men in your example are proud of their roots however.

[Gwenhwyfar]

"So for example if you were to say 'India is' it sounds like you're saying 'India ris'"

Yes, I know what it is even if I didn't have the technical term at the tip of my tongue.

"I guarantee that the vast majority of people who do this don't even realise, I would go as far as to say they would out and out deny they did it until it was pointed out to them."

Interesting. I was laughing at Liz Truss because she's made a career out of looking down her nose at other people and here she is adding that horrible 'r' where, even she would agree, it doesn't belong.

[DeoGratias]

On the Scottish link and comments above I don't agree that if you're posh Scots you have a Scottish accent necessarily. It would be the same as at my private school in Newcastle and how I speak - a bit of a variety between people in the class but not really a Geordie accent for most people and some prouncing bath with the short and some with the long a. I have lived in London for 30 years and I don't say bath with a short a any more and I think that just indicates that some people change accent as they move around and other people don't. Whether I would have made more money and got better jobs in London had I developed instead a strong Geordie accent remains to be seen. May be its absence is what held me back. Doubt it.

It can be very useful if you can change how you speak. Plenty of teenagers are good at this -t hey speak the way those at school speak to fit in with them - whether that be posh or more common than at home or with more teenage speak and then they convert at home to whatever people at home or don't if they want to annoy their mother of course.

[fanjoforthemammaries7850]

It's not often I agree with deo but yes I know a few people who are Scottish who developed English accents at Scottish public schools..Fettes being one.

[derxa]

It can be very useful if you can change how you speak. Plenty of teenagers are good at this -t hey speak the way those at school speak to fit in with them - whether that be posh or more common than at home or with more teenage speak and then they convert at home to whatever people at home or don't if they want to annoy their mother of course.
This is how it works. People change their accent to fit in.