To wonder what your views are on 'working class' accents

[Timri]

And think people need to learn the difference between the words correct and standard
Inspired by a comment by somebody saying they didn't look down on anybody's accent, but hated words being pronounced 'incorrectly' such as 'bovvered'.
Uhm, it's called th fronting and it's one of the central features of a cockney accent FFS.
Please tell me I'm not alone in this?

I don't give a stuff about 'fitting in' when it is based on personal appearance and would never change the way I speak or dress in order to do so.

I simply expect to be judged on my abilities and performance, not how I look or speak.

But it is interesting about the speech thing. I work in lots of different environments and have noticed that men who work in heavy industry/construction swear significantly more than those who work in offices/factories.

Is this because it is more acceptable and men in non-manual/'cleaner' jobs are surpressing their swearing instinct, or is it different types of people who go into different types of work? I don't always think it's the latter as the architects/site managers on the construction sites can be just as foul mouthed as the manual workers (limiting this just to men because the construction/industrial sites are so male dominated there isn't usually enough women to make a judgement on swearing frequency).

And I think clothing down the mines is dictated by practicality and health and safety requirements. As should it be in other environments. Who would you take more seriously? Someone who speaks and dresses nicely, but spouts a load of shit, or someone who may not be nicely dressed or spoken, but does a good job?

The worst accent is the YouTube accent - where everything is 'super cute' and 'awesome' and over positive. You can always tell when a person has been watching too many room tours, unboxing videos and life hacks.

I was once turned down for a sales job in Scotland because my English accent would not have worked with the prospective clients (teachers!)

Where would that fit in legally?

I live in the Midlands and I hate the local accent here so much that I just avoid speaking to people. The only other accent I hate more is the Liverpool accent, I don't think I could live there at all.

Well I'm glad no one is forcing you to live here namechanger

I have lived in the Midlands and thought they had a great accent, duck. I love the variety of accents in the UK.

I think it's unfortunate that accent in the UK is still such an issue. AFAIK this is not such an issue in other European countries, where accents are correlated more with geography and less with class.

I am interested in the comments on Scottish accents. A friend of mine who speaks RP and is public school/Oxbridge educated says that he just can't place people's class if they have a Scottish accent.

I also think it's interesting that people refer to "a Scottish accent" as though it were as distinct as a Manchester or Birmingham accent or whatever. It is more accurate to regard it as a national accent, like an English accent. There are many many different Scottish accents, just as there are many different English accents.

Barbara, but the choice for employers who are recruiting is usually vast - you have 100s of candidates with all jobs often with all As from good universities so what you then filter down to given they are all competent is whether they are clever enough to mirror the speech and clothes of those who work there and will be accepted by the clients (now that might mean cool and trendy, full beard in some cases or might be clean shaven pin striped suit and not brown shoes in another context).

there are many many different Scottish accents, just as there are many different English accents.
That is very true.

A friend of mine who speaks RP and is public school/Oxbridge educated says that he just can't place people's class if they have a Scottish accent
Why is he trying to do that?

Why is he trying to do that?
Actually Derxa he is a very nice unsnobbish man. He coaches classical singers on English diction. If a classical singer brought an English folk song to him, he would encourage the singer to use the appropriate regional accent. Similarly if he was coaching them on an operatic role, he would help the singer to find the appropriate accent for their role.
He was making the point that as an English person (and language specialist) he doesn't really know what the markers are to distinguish between Scottish RP and Scottish vernacular.

Xxmmaass That's a really interesting job. If he wants an example of Scottish RP he could do worse than listen to Gavin Hastings' voice. Does he have a bank of recordings that he listens to?

Derxa, I don't know whether he has an accent "bank".
It's interesting that singers using RP English from say 50 or 70 years ago would empahasise r sounds more than they do now, rather as a Scottish person would today.
For instance in the past an English RP singer would sing "far away" or "lunar eclipse" with the r sounding. Nowadays the r is almost inaudible, maybe with a slight glottal stop. (I might not have given a good example, but it gives the gist.)

Conversely, he would always advise a singer against inserting an r in a word like "drawing". Even BBC presenters nowadays will say "draw-ring" but apparently it is not considered to be good sung English. Perhaps in another 50 years it will be a fully accepted part of a Southern English accent.

I think it's brilliant that television are making a conscious effort to employ presenters with a wide range of regional accents.
I would say I can't believe that there has been some negative responses to it, but unfortunately I can believe it.
Also was discussing the thread with somebody in real life, who informed me that the main aspects of Cockney (and now parts of the Estuary) accent is due to French influence from around the 18th century.
I don't know if it's true, but it certainly seems plausible to me considering the characteristics. There is no 'th' sound in French, hence th-fronting. French have silent 'h' hence h-dropping, silent 't's hence glottal stops etc.
Really interesting stuff

I think it's brilliant that television are making a conscious effort to employ presenters with a wide range of regional accents.

Yes. License-payers come from all parts of the UK and everyone should feel represented.

Re the "draw-ring" pronunciation of "drawing", it seems to me that that is down to lazy speech rather than dialect or accent, but it's a grey area, and accents evolve. There is no good reason why the SE English accent should be regarded as more "correct" than an accent from elsewhere. It's just an accident of geography really, that the seat of power ended up being in the South-East of England.

It's just an accident of geography really, that the seat of power ended up being in the South-East of England

Exactly. Basically a bunch of people sitting around, 'Everyone speaks differently, we need to standardise the language so we can all understand each other. Now what shall we use as standard? Oh, I know! The way we speak'

I don't think I can tell the difference between Scottish accents well, if at all. But I have had less exposure to them. English accents I find fairly easy to place, Welsh accents I can place to the town. There are a lot of different accents in Wales considering its size.

Who would you take more seriously? Someone who speaks and dresses nicely, but spouts a load of shit, or someone who may not be nicely dressed or spoken, but does a good job?

But real life doesn't work that way. If you decide not to 'play the game' as regards dress codes or workplace etiquette you'll need to be twice as good to be taken half as seriously. In a client-facing role, you normally dress to meet client expectations.

It doesn't mean it's right, but it is how the game is currently played.

Alis I'm the exact opposite. I could recognise a Welsh person but not tell you even North or Sputh Wales, but I could place a Scottish voice pretty well.

i dont care how people speak as long as they dont cause me problems

I guess it depends on your exposure/where you're from, I'm Welsh so I have a keener ear for Welsh accents. And English accents are more commonly heard on the television than both Welsh and Scottish.

I once saw / heard a piece on TV where they played samples of accents across North Wales and ended in Liverpool, which was very similar.

I can hear differences in the accents around my conurbation, so much so I recognise the very small area around where I grew up. Heard a neighbour of my Mum's on national radio and clocked it was "my" accent and met a guy in part of the UK and he was from half a mile away from my home.

That makes sense Build. I think the Liverpool accent has been strongly influenced by North Walians, a particular sound Liverpudlians make is common in some Welsh words, can't really write it but the "aaach" sound, and also Irish immigrants.

"e the "draw-ring" pronunciation of "drawing", it seems to me that that is down to lazy speech rather than dialect or accent, but it's a grey area, and accents evolve."

I've noticed that many native English speakers have a problem with two vowels next to each other and need to add an 'r'. Even the pedant Liz Truss did it on University Challenge the other night. Unfortunately, can't think of an example at the moment.

"In the UK you are judged on three things : your accent, which school you went to and what your dad does for a living.

Your accent has a pretty strong effect on your life, I'd say."

More so in England than in the rest of the UK.