To wonder what your views are on 'working class' accents

[Timri]

And think people need to learn the difference between the words correct and standard
Inspired by a comment by somebody saying they didn't look down on anybody's accent, but hated words being pronounced 'incorrectly' such as 'bovvered'.
Uhm, it's called th fronting and it's one of the central features of a cockney accent FFS.
Please tell me I'm not alone in this?

[Timri]

I don't think like that darth I really don't think there is a 'right' way to speak!!
The 'inverse snobbery' thing certainly exists, and I think at this point in time the standard has changed from traditional RP accent to the Estuary accent.
Anything too 'posh' or too 'common' gets ridiculed, although I'd say it's more weighted towards the 'common'.
Also I think that while you might not hear certain accents in certain professions, it doesn't necessarily mean people from the areas who traditionally speak with that accent don't actually work in those professions, just more likely that the ones who do have made a conscious effort to change the way they speak.

Yes I wrote the OP with the 'chavvy' hate that word accent in mind, but I think it applies to all 'working class' accents

[goodnightdarthvader1]

I think at this point in time the standard has changed from traditional RP accent to the Estuary accent.

Agreed. I lament that because it's "cool" to be "street" and uneducated. I have no problem with people sounding like a "chav" as long as they prioritise their education instead of wanting to be exactly like someone from TOWIE.

[Timri]

I speak well because my parents encouraged it, and didn't put up with me imitating my peers and dropping my "th"s and saying "innit"

This is exactly what I'm talking about.
What does speaking well even mean?
Innit is just a colloquialism, and th fronting and t dropping are probably the main characterisations of that accent.
It's a perfectly valid regional accent

[derxa]

they prioritise their education instead of wanting to be exactly like someone from TOWIE. A lot of the TOWIE people went to private school

[EBearhug]

I agree people should talk about standard rather than correct, when it comes to accents. I'm also prepared to accept that some grammatical constructions are acceptable in particular dialects, even if it would be wrong in standard English.

People do make assumptions and judgements about accents though. I have a Dorset accent, which can be quite strong at times. A few people have assumed this means I'm thick. Whether or not I correct them in this assumption depends on the circumstances. Sometimes it's been useful, as it tells me a lot about them.

[howtorebuild]

It's not just the accent, it's the clothing type and vocabulary. Fascinating and extraordinary uttered from a Woman wearing a blazer, blouse and jeans, hair in a bloodied Bob, what class?

[Muskey]

It isn't accents that dictate what class somebody is from but the way they speak can be an indicator as to their family background. For example what you call your eveing and mid day meal can pin point what "class" you belong to.

[howtorebuild]

Blowdried bob

[raisin3cookies]

I'm American, so the sharply delineated class distinctions from one accent to the next fascinates me. There are class distinctions in different American accents, of course, but I feel like the UK has a lot more diversity packed into a much smaller surface area.

[goodnightdarthvader1]

Derxa, ok, bad example. Not being down with the kids I don't know who the latest uneducated airhead role model is, but hopefully you get the gist of my point.

Timri, estuary english has ceased to be a regional accent. It's all over the country, and not because boatloads of people from Essex are moving to the Home Counties. It's because it's become a "lifestyle" thing, IMO.

[nortonhouse]

For what it's worth, I am an American who's been living in the UK for several years now, and I think I can differentiate very well between a regional accent and a "lower class" accent. I have travelled all over the UK and heard both lower class and upper class accents in all parts, and in my mind that is quite different from regional variations in accents IYSWIM. Two different things.

[Charley50]

I'm from north London and am quite well spoken apart from I say f instead of th a lot.. Fanx, somefing, etc, I didn't know this was called fronting. Fanx for the info. My poor pronouniation has confused my DS a little bit; e.g. He wrote 'thurther' instread of further the other day, as he wasn't sure if it began with th or f. !! I also miss out 'to the'.. I'm going shop, which annoys be about myself.

[LoisWilkersonsLastNerve]

A huv wan masel. Am fae Glesga.

[Werksallhourz]

A lot of "working class accents" are actually regional accents that have retained more dialect features. Middle class accents tend to be regional accents that have less dialect features because the middle classes stripped them out as they needed to be understood across regional lines due to the nature of their professions. This reverses or once did once you got to the aristocracy who didn't really need to be understood by anyone outside their own circle.

Put it this way, back in the 18th century, people from different regions of England couldn't really understand each other. There's a great story about a Norfolk painter who was asked to the Royal Academy to present his work, and no-one in the art circles in London could tell what the hell he was saying.

Interestingly, RP actually derived from a Yorkshire accent. It evolved in the 18th and 18th century due to successful Yorkshire industrialists sending their sons to public schools and Oxbridge. It isn't, at heart, a "posh" accent.

I don't know much about other accents but I do know my own very well. What people perceive as "common" or "working class" about our accent tends to be the features that are some of the oldest parts of our original dialect, particularly the vocalisation of articles that precede an object.

For example: "I'm going down t'pub" or "Tha cat sat on thuh mat."

This is all from the time when we originally used different article forms to denote the subject or object of a verb. We no longer write different forms, but we have retained them in speech, and the practice is hundreds of year old.

In my view, accents became "class-bound" because dense regional artifacts in speech prohibited communication across regional lines, and the requirement to communicate across regional lines signified socio-economic status.

[derxa]

goodnight I'm not 'down with the kids' but I don't think it's 'cool' amongst teens and twentysomethings to speak RP. Vicky Pattinson who won I'm A Celebrity has a very strong --exaggerated Geordie accent. Yet she had quite middle class upbringing got straight As in her A Levels and gained a degree. People can choose an accent to fit in.

[BarbaraofSeville]

I'm another Leeds lass and have a broad Yorkshire accent (mining stock so working class) and I've often if middle class Yorkshire folk speak differently to us, and what accent working class Home Counties people have.

To me, most people from southern England, with the possible exception of Essex and cockneys sound 'posh'.

[Timri]

I also think it's worth pointing out that grammar is not set in stone, and what is 'grammatically correct' can change.
For example, using the word me for my.
At one point in time 'me' would have been correct, then the use of 'my' overtook it.
By today's standards, me is 'wrong' and my is 'right'.
It's thought that in some regions the fact me is still used in place of my actually means that those regions simply never made the change
It's the same thing in some northern dialects where 'thee' is still used. They simply never stopped saying it

[Timri]

Cross posted with werk there!

[BarbaraofSeville]

A lot of "working class accents" are actually regional accents that have retained more dialect features. Middle class accents tend to be regional accents that have less dialect features because the middle classes stripped them out as they needed to be understood across regional lines due to the nature of their professions. This reverses or once did once you got to the aristocracy who didn't really need to be understood by anyone outside their own circle.

Ah, that's interesting Werksallhourz. It's certainly the case that people from my Dad's generation and previously, didn't ever really leave the county, or even very local area.

Your name reminds me of a joke that was going round a couple of years ago - Twerk . It’s what people from Yorkshire do to earn money, not a provocative arse wiggling dance performed by Miley Cirus.

[goodnightdarthvader1]

Sorry Dexra, I've lost what "RP" means. And OP has said she's talking more about estuary english than geordie accents.

[SummerNights1986]

Uhm, it's called th fronting and it's one of the central features of a cockney accent FFS

That doesn't change the fact that pronouncing your 'th' as 'fff' or 'vvv' is technically incorrect in the English language.

Yes it is often a feature of a cockney accent, but in many areas that th fronting is indicative of being working class, poorly spoken or ill educated, and you'll be judged as such for it.

My ds1 does it - 'free' for 'three', 'fings' for 'things'. We're in South Wales so it's not a common regional thing here, just lazy speech...and we're consciously trying to drum it out of him. Me, dh, ds2 don't do it so it's not learnt by example.

[Werksallhourz]

And then there the interesting phenomenon of environment.

For example, you tend to find "sing-song" accents such as Welsh or West Yorkshire in areas that were heavily reliant on the sheep industry: either for the production of lamb or wool. My feeling is that the "sing-song" accent developed as a way to communicate in areas that are fairly hilly hence appropriate for the raising of sheep as the sound carries better in that kind of environment.

Likewise, the over-pronunciation in the urban Lancashire accent is a product of cotton mills. The mills would be so loud that the only way to communicate with another worker would be to almost lip-read what they were saying, which led to an exaggerated physicality in speech.

So the way someone speaks is heavily connected to who they are, what they do and who they need to communicate with. Of course, all this sends out signals to others .. hence, again, speech becomes class-bound.