Where do you stand on this one...

[Marilynsbigsister]

I'm not going to NC but will be slightly oblique about circumstances as quite identifying . Two very young 20 yr olds in a relationship. Been together 3 months. Male at Uni but lives at home, female working also living at home. The boy has mentioned to his parents (actually his mum mostly) that cracks are starting to appear because she is keen to move on to the next level and is putting the pressure on to get a flat together and 'settle down'. Boy has told her 'definitely not at the moment' his plans include post graduate study abroad for a couple of years . Anyway, the dilemma.. 2 days after the 'settle down' conversation, there was a contraception failure. Condom split, (apparently it was not just a small tear but from top all way to base. ) Boy has been taught from early on that he must be responsible for his own fertility and insisted on condoms as he is adamant he doesn't want children yet although gf is on the pill. Boy is now beside himself with worry, he begged his gf to go with him to get morning after pill. Gf reaction has been to refuse saying that if she gets pregnant against all these odds then it is meant to be . Boy is the sort to do the right thing. Would give up career goals of he had children to support. I know all the ins and outs because mum is close relative. Mum believes gf is manipulating her son into parenthood because this happened literally a couple of days after discussing settling down. What is the right thing to do if she is pregnant. ? Does he give up his plans and support a child he does not wish to have, took precautions to avoid and made his feelings very clear BEFORE conception. Or does he suck it up, leave Uni and get a job to support the child and learn never again have sex with someone he doesn't want to have a child with. ? For my part I have met the gf a few times so not enough to form an opinion except that she is much more mature than her boyfriend. (My relative is livid and truly believes she 'doctored the condoms - which would be impossible - she is too angry to be logical !)
BTW she was due AF on Monday. Apparently there are pts that are accurate to a few days late so all a bit tense in female relatives household at the moment.

LeaLeander, this nice young man has also made a bad life choice. He had sex with someone he didn't know very well. Now he is entangled in complexities he didn't want. Bet he wasn't thinking clearly "in the heat of the moment" either.

Oh and do you extend your contempt to fathers on welfare or is it reserved for the mothers?

my daughter is 23 and has been dating a lovely man for 3 months

Regardless of age if my DD or if I had a DS came to me and said they were considering moving in with someone after dating for 3 months I would be seriously trying to get them to reconsider that decision. I am sure there are situations that have worked but 3 months is way to early to be making this kind of commitment IMHO.

If he thinks there are cracks and the relationship is not going to last he should stop sleeping with her and end the relationship.

The longer he continues to have sex with her the more chance there is of a pregnancy. No method is 100% and no matter how minute the chance every time he has sex with her there is a chance. Contraception failure has just increased that chance.

It is also not very nice to continue to see her and sleep with her if he thinks the relationship is doomed.

He should end it now, not wait until a negative result. What if there isn't a negative result?

I think he should stay at uni and get qualified, however if there is a child is he going to have spare money to go abroad for a few years to do a post grad?

Tough call really and I hope she isn't pregnant and he does the decent thing and ends it soon.

Like I said before, RudeElf, with the control comes the responsibility. I am 100 percent in charge of whether or not I reproduce and accept that by ceding no authority to the man in question, I also bear the brunt of accountability for the choices I make.

If women would stop choosing to bear the children of losers, users, abandoners, addicts, untreated mentally ill, unemployable, low-intelligence, criminal, chronically angry/violent or other undesirables, there would not be so many "struggling single moms" on the planet. You'd think women would want the highest quality father possible for their offspring but instead we have legions who will accept the sperm of just about any low-quality specimen who chats with her for more than five minutes, and then proceed with the pregnancy and childrearing on everyone else's dime.

They would be the first to indignantly claim "Well, it takes a village," but suggest that the village should also get a say in who breeds, when and how often and they go ballistic.

Very, very few men change their character and temperament between conception and birth of a child. The signs of all of the above drawbacks were always there should the woman be interested in seeing them.

Yes he is supporting the child if there is one, financially and by spending time with the child/being a father to that child.

BUT he also finishes his Uni degree/master as planned (best way to have a good wage to pprovide well for said child)
he doesn't move in with his gf if he doesn't really want to. We arent living in those times when pregnant = married anymore!.

What I WOULD be looking at is maybe not going abroad to do a Master if he is by then a father (might expect him to want to carry on building his relationship with the child, lookinf after the child etc...)
And I would be looking very carefully at the relationship. He needs to ask himslef if this is what he wants (I'm guessing not)

I am 100 percent in charge of whether or not I reproduce

So is every man.

I also bear the brunt of accountability for the choices I make.

but men should not?

I would address the rest of your post but it is ill-informed nonsense.

Btw, do you extend your contempt for fathers on welfare?

Btw, if this was the girl, I would be giving the same advice. Do anything to finish your studies first and foremost! Even with a baby.
Id she was my child, I would also do my best to support her to do so and to involve the father so that childcare can be shared as much as possible etc...

I CAN be done btw. It's not because there is a child in the mix that you have to stop everything and go and stack shelves at ASDA.

But clearly, elf, the man is not 100 percent in charge. Not when a woman can determine, in the event of a good-faith contraception failure, that he will become a father against his stated preference. I call that a lowdown, despicable thing to do to someone. A man cannot force a woman to bear a child, short of extreme kidnap scenarios.

The person whose scenario the OP outlined was responsibly using contraception. His girlfriend knew that the object of the condom use was to avoid pregnancy. Perhaps women who are so strongly anti-choice need to proactively warn men "If I become pregnant through this sex act I won't be having an abortion or taking the MAP" each and every time they prepare to hop into bed. And see how fast most men make tracks out of there. Because I don't think in the 21st century, proceeding with the pregnancy is the default expectation of everyone who "gambles" at having sex with two forms of contraception.

LeaLeander, do you know why so many women are on welfare?

It's because the fathers didn't and don't take any responsibility for the child, and don't pay for it. So the state needs to step in to stop the child starving.

Oh and men don't have a sign on their forehead to indicate immediately upon meeting that they are " losers, users, abandoners, addicts, untreated mentally ill, unemployable, low-intelligence, criminal, chronically angry/violent or other undesirables "

This all leaves a bad taste in the mouth...they are not children they are over 20 years old!.. You have sex you take a risk, like any risks in life and if you happen to create a life on the way you cannot abdicate your responsibility because it's inconvenient...I find it strange that being responsible for your own fertility means begging another person to take medication against their will...having a child does not equate the end of the world nor does it indicate a life-long partnership in this case...but you lie down you take the risks and you deal with the situation as best you can...he does not have to give up his life as a student but he might have to give up time and money for a child he helped create accident or not...he does not have to stay with her but her would certainly have to support his off-spring...I do wonder how this would read from the female perspective ...

yes I really see men running out of the door once a woman announces she would not consider a termination or taking the MAP

I am shocked how many men do not even give contraception that much thought and if they get the chance are prepared to not use a condom

The person whose scenario the OP outlined was responsibly using contraception.

Yes, so he told his mummy. While crying about how the girl he doesn't really like anymore, but is still having sex with, is trying to trap him with a baby, despite her being on the pill herself.

But clearly, elf, the man is not 100 percent in charge. Not when a woman can determine, in the event of a good-faith contraception failure, that he will become a father against his stated preference.

Yes. Because when it comes to pregnancy and abortion, which impacts the woman's body only, it's a very democratic process, with only one qualified voter.

The person whose scenario the OP outlined was responsibly using contraception.

Yes, so he told his mummy. While crying about how the girl he doesn't really like anymore, but is still having sex with, is trying to trap him with a baby, despite her being on the pill herself.

But clearly, elf, the man is not 100 percent in charge. Not when a woman can determine, in the event of a good-faith contraception failure, that he will become a father against his stated preference.

Yes. Because when it comes to pregnancy and abortion, which impacts the woman's body only, it's a very democratic process, with only one qualified voter.

It's all very weird and judgemental. We are no longer in the Victorian age and accept that sex can be for other than procreation, that young people have sex, even sometimes with people they don't know very well (I'd guess many of us have started a relationship that way rather than waiting, I don't know, a year, until we felt we knew the person properly). And yes there are risks attached to sex but we provide options out where we can (sex education, MAP, termination, sexual health clinic).

But somehow in this case the man should not have sex unless he is prepared to be a father. And women and girls shouldn't either. Which would mean for most people waiting until they are in their thirties .

I completely agree that he may end up financially on the hook and there's no way round that if she wants to keep the baby. But it's tough on a young man when the decision on something so profound is completely out of his hands (unless he chooses the route of abstention which I didn't think was really very commonplace in 2015 but appears to be the route advocated on this thread). Again, there's no way round it. But I would be horrified if this happened to my son. If my daughter got pregnant in less than ideal circs she'd have choices about the long term outcome. My son wouldn't and I'll have to teach him that.

No one's saying the man should have a veto. They are just saying it's very hard on a young man in this situation. Doubtless it is tough on the girl too but she can decide to be a mother or not and that's pretty powerful.

I am so sorry for lack of input , everyone has replied with all the feelings I have. I am really torn with this one. I have been oblique with familial info as I thought mum might be on mn. But she definitely isn't... So fine to say that mum is my dsis and bf is my dn... Anyway, reason for lack of input is that I was summoned over to hers because gf pos and it was negative. He wasted no time in telling her she was a manipulative fruitcake and wanted her to 'fuck off out of his life'... She has refused. Says she could still be pg and was sitting on the floor in his hallway refusing to move when I arrived. Two hrs later she is still trying to persuade him he is wrong to dump her ... I've left and come home. Dsis is going to wait until 10:30 and call her a cab home. If she refuses , she is going to tell patents what is happening. ( which EX gf seems very upset about) ...

But clearly, elf, the man is not 100 percent in charge.

Of his own penis? I should hope so, otherwise he has more serious issues than just one woman and possible pregnancy.

a woman can determine, in the event of a good-faith contraception failure, that he will become a father against his stated preference. I call that a lowdown, despicable thing to do to someone

by doing nothing, by allowing the natural consequences of having sex to occur? What idiot men are we raising that object to the natural consequences of their own actions occuring? Who are these baby men that expect women to clean up their messes? Why arent they going into sex with full acceptance of the fact that a child can and may result? Why is this message not getting through?

Perhaps women who are so strongly anti-choice need to proactively warn men "If I become pregnant through this sex act I won't be having an abortion or taking the MAP"

What on earth is anti-choice about choosing to continue a pregnancy?

I'm having trouble getting my head around some of the attitudes on this thread. I just don't understand the harsh view of someone who is already taking hormonal contraception for not taking the MAP on top just because her partner tells her to. The likelihood of one instance of sex whilst protected by such a highly effective form of contraception resulting in a pregnancy is very low indeed. I'm sure she knows this very well. I wouldn't be volunteering to throw up for a couple of days just to assuage someone's ill-founded anxiety either.

He wasted no time in telling her she was a manipulative fruitcake and wanted her to 'fuck off out of his life'

This from such a "naice" boy?

Lealander you really think that would make an impact?..maybe to YOU and some ...but how do you think all these 'accidents' happen many men don't and wont wear condoms you certainly do not speak for all men...wear a condom/or not you take a risk it's that simple...if you want to completely ensure you don't have a child with said woman...don't have sex with her...how do you think disease is passed?...holding hands by candle-light?..and people do not care! This is on both of them...what I find amazing is no one talks about their sexual health...their expectations in a sexual relationship..sometimes even basic contraception and then they lay down and act shocked when they might have made a child or catch something...you can take your kit off and expose yourself but you balk at having a conversation about your sexual health and relationship..

elf you put it as "clearing up someone else's mess" and I see where you are coming from on that. Contraception and termination is messy and tough and physical and painful and women tend to have to deal with it. That's not fair at all. But they also get power over their own futures. I thank god for that which is why I am such a huge supporter of abortion rights and think we should actually cheerlead more for abortion rather than having to be so angsty about it all the time.

I just know if my 20 year old DD got pregnant when she didn't want to be she could do something about it and I hope that she, like me when I had a termination for other reasons, could be absolutely fine with it and get on with her life feeling nothing but gladness that the option was available to me. Whereas if my son was in this situation he would be powerless. They could both have been silly, foolish, careless. Or maybe just unlucky. But one has power and one doesn't.

As I say, it doesn't happen often in this society that women hold the cards but here they do and I will make sure my son is aware.

Wow. Unless there's a huge back story here, I'd say she has had a very lucky escape, poor girl; although I bet she doesn't feel that way right now.

Why was she manipulative fruitcake?

They has sex. She was on the pill and they used a condom. As others said on the pill there wasn't any need for the morning after pill.

She was not being manipulative.

He isn't coming across very well there now.

Actually I was surprised ! Such a naice boy! Just goes to show. ..having spent 90 minutes on a hall floor it seems she is convinced she will be pregnant... Which makes me question my initial poo-pooing of dsis assertion that condom was doctored and she is on pill. If I had to put money on it I would say she isn't and saw DN as a 'suitable baby father' who's family would provide for the child even if bf couldn't ...