to plan on walking out of work at 1.30 on Friday?

[PennyHasNoSurname]

Its my daughters Nativity, her first one.

This week sees the implementation of a project at work that I am massively involved in. All.of my week is spent on training and development and we "go live" Friday.

As soon as I found out the Nativity date I spoke with my line manager about getting away at 1.30 on Friday, for it, and offered to return after it til whenever I was needed. Our industry is 365 days a year, 24 hrs a day. I am rostered to work til 3.30pm.

It was not well received, and I have been told "this really isnt the best week for this" and my direct line manager has cancelled a lunch date with her own friends on that day.

AIBU or WIBU to remain insistant that I need to leave at 1.30, and to feel that my reason is more important than a lunch date with a friend?

WWYD? Would you leave?

Fwiw I would not be leaving the place understaffed, I am surplus this week as dedicated solely to the new project. We also have tech support in all week and they are there Fri purely for troubleshooting after going live.

I would feel too guilty to miss school plays/assemblies/sports days etc. DH was the child that didn't have a parent at the majority of school events and he remembers only too well how this made him feel. For this reason one of us attends everything, even if this means taking annual leave or working late.

In fact, Goldenbear your post is unbelievably smug, insulting and downright daft.

Most big businesses have a family friendly policy and they should do all they can to allow you this time off.

I only read the first few replies in this thread and was quite surprised;
You will NEVER be able to see your DD's first nativity again, in my opinion one of the important events to attend. My wife an I attended both of our DS's first nativities and cherish those memories, we would not have missed them for the world. I still remember them fondly with a little tear of happiness.
They are 12 and 16 now.

Now at the ripe old age of 51 I have come to realise that as an employee your are nothing more than a number on a payroll. Your immediate management may say they value you but if the business falls on hard times and need to make staff redundant they won't think twice about letting you go.
There will be no considerations of the extra hours you worked to meet a deadline, no consideration that you came in early, went home late and certainly no consideration that you gave up seeing your DD's first nativity play.

I wouldn't just not go in but I would certainly be having words with your management, at the end of the day a nativity is more important that a lunch date and a first nativity trumps it easily.

At the end of the day, it's up to you but what are they going to do? Fire you? I'd love to be in the public gallery at your hearing for unfair dismissal.
They won't, best they can do is to give you a verbal warning and they would be unfair to do that in my opinion.

Just remember, these are moments that will NEVER happen again, are you really prepared to miss them?

My three favourite mad suggestions in this thread have been:

3. Undermine your manager's decision
4. Take a mobile phone to the performance, in case work need you
5. Pretend to be sick, and hope nobody sees through your story

Drew64 Even if you're a number on a payroll, managers are insane to not agree basic flexible working like this. The cost of recruiting a replacement is so much higher than the cost of two hours off, indeed the cost of a demotivated employee is worth that, let alone one who would probably leave because of it.

I guess the "managers" on this thread who'd be telling their employees to sling their hook either love interviewing people, or they manage very low level trivially replaceable staff, otherwise they'd've realised you don't lose staff over such things.

Now it may be that there really is a business need to miss the nativity, but that would be resolved with an explanation of why it would not be possible to agree to the flexibility, rather than a NO.

Fred - From the OP's comment "This week sees the implementation of a project at work that I am massively involved in. All.of my week is spent on training and development and we "go live" Friday.", I would suggest that it's abundantly clear to her why it's not possible for her to leave.

a nativity is more important that a lunch date and a first nativity trumps it easily.

The manager's lunch date might be as important to her as the nativity is to the OP. We don't know whether it's a special occasion for her and her friends. Just because an event doesn't involve children, doesn't mean it's not important.

And yes, agree absolutely with beefthief. Sit in the nativity audience with phone switched on, so if it rings, not only have you pissed off your workmates, because they needed you and you weren't there, you've also pissed off the other parents and the teachers because you've interrupted the play. And probably mortified your DC too, if they realise it's you.

Your child may very well remember you missing the nativity. Tough!
Sometimes work, the thing that you choose to do that pays for your lifestyle, cannot trump child.

beef - I would add another:

Get a friend to record it - yes because schools generally allow filming

I was about to say that, Elinor. That is a BREATHTAKINGLY arrogant assertion, Drew. Who on earth do you think you are (not just you; others have said similar things) that you get to decide which aspects of a person's personal life are more and which less 'important', just because your version of them involves children?

OP, you may have chosen a job with MORE flexibility, however your manager has signalled to you that flexibility is NOT allowed this week when the project goes live.

What part of that do you not understand?

You mention that the IT section is running the evening shift to test out the system - they are simply not covering YOUR job when the parameters and requirements need to be specified to the final degree. They will be doing short-running tests with the input of the people who are running the system regularly. The bugs unspecified features need to be ironed out before they link and go live.

I do believe in the right of every parent to return to work - with as much flexibility as is possibly negotiable. However, the level of flexibility must be specified and any additional requirements are at the discretion on the manager (without landing on MN to say you are peeved about the decision).

As for 'appealing to your manager' when s/he has already said "no" - that's emotional blackmail and I wouldn't thank you for it - nor would the staff in my team who have given up attending other family events.

OnlyLovers

"Who on earth do you think you are"

Is there any need for that type of English language, have I insulted you NO!
Jog on!

"(not just you; others have said similar things) that you get to decide which aspects of a person's personal life are more and which less 'important', just because your version of them involves children?"

I'm not deciding what is and is not more important, I'm merely stating my opinion on a public forum.
It is OBVIOUS that the OP is torn between work and nativity play so both things are important or did you not read the OP?

There's a big difference between wanting time off on a regular working day and when there is a critical event happening at work. That could be end of year, system going live, major deal about to be signed or whatever. Often there may be nothing to do but it's vital you are there just in case, I had to work on 2000 eve and that was one masive none event My manager would have been fired if something had gone wrong and there wasn't more than adequate cover.

My husband and me have mainly both worked for reasonable places and have made most of our kids school events. Luckily we have often been able to work flexibly and not waste annual leave on plays and sports days. I'm sure that if it were a more run of the mill day the OPs boss would have been more accomodating.

It isnt always possible and sometimes you have to shrug your shoulders and get on with it. I worked last Christmas Day and Boxing Day despite not being contracted to, asked to, expected to, on call etc A client had an unusual problem on Xmas Eve, I picked it up and coordinated tech staff in an other country to fix it and keep client updated.

All I can say is that I'm glad I don't work for some of the businesses that some of you must work for.
The company I work for have a flexible leave and family friendly policy and our managers do all they can to support their employees and their families regardless.

So far this year,
I have had three days compassionate leave in a row when the policy is 1 day.
I have had numerous short notice holidays and flexi days when the policy is for 0
I have been able to book the last week of the year off even though it will be month end and me not being here means the accounts for the projects I manage (in excess of £20m) will not be accurate.

I guess I'm just lucky.

I often covered DN's childcare from school for weekends and holidays.

When DM couldn't get to the annual play (work commitments), I then tried to juggle my work schedule to be able to attend. If neither of us could get there - that was the reality of life. It didn't stop DN doing his very best for his teacher and classmates so that the production was excellent for other parents.

findlaw.co.uk/law/employment/pay_and_work_rights/time_off/8385.html

Can an employer reasonably deny a request for holiday?

"In the absence of an agreement to the contrary, if a worker gives their employer proper notice of a holiday, they are generally entitled to take it."

"However, an employer can deny a worker’s request for holiday if they have given the right amount of notice. An employer’s failure to do so can give rise to a worker’s right to claim compensation before an employment tribunal."

What happens when an employer unreasonably refuses a request for holiday?

"If an employer rejects a worker’s request for holiday and an informal attempt to resolve the problem is unsuccessful, a worker can ask an employment tribunal to enforce their right to take a holiday."

"A tribunal claim must be made within three months of their employer’s refusal of the request for leave."

Your manager needs to be careful OP!

Drew.

Is there any need for that type of English language, have I insulted you NO!

What? Why 'English language'? And since when can posters only respond to personal insults/addresses on here?

And yes, sure, you're stated your opinion on a public forum. Your opinion, like the OP's, sounds very much as though it is that 'at the end of the day' (in your words, and quite a conclusive and firm choice of words too) a nativity play simply and unarguably trumps a lunch date.

Under the same rules of 'opinions on a public forum', I advanced my opinion that I think what you said was dogmatic, and asked – and it's a genuine question – how you and others can feel so sure about what trumps what.

The last company I worked for was generally very flexible too. They'd say yes to things like a request to go to a school play when possible, provided hours were worked back.

But the key words there are "if possible". If important project stuff - deadlines, product launches, etc - clashed with the school event, then the management would expect the important project stuff to take precedence. Because that's what pays everyone's wages.

YABU. Can DP go instead? You can't go to everything as a working parent.

Has the OP given her employer "proper notice of a holiday"?

What constitutes proper notice varies from employer to employer - DH has to give at least 6 weeks notice for any holiday request.

""If an employer rejects a worker’s request for holiday and an informal attempt to resolve the problem is unsuccessful, a worker can ask an employment tribunal to enforce their right to take a holiday."

"A tribunal claim must be made within three months of their employer’s refusal of the request for leave."

Your manager needs to be careful OP!"

The trouble with digging something out on the Internet without any actual, you know, knowledge yourself is you end up spouting nonsense.

Yes an employee can ask a tribunal to enforce their right to take holiday. But they can't ask a tribunal to enforce their "right" to take holiday on a specific day of their choosing because no such right exists.

There is nothing to give any indication that the OPs employer intends to prevent her taking her holiday entitlement. All they've done is refuse a request for leave on a particular afternoon for what sound like perfectly reasonable business grounds. So stop with the over-dramatic talk about tribunals for goodness sake.

Sadly, working parents miss stuff. Whether mothers or fathers. That is the choice we make. Been there, seen it (or missed it), done it. The only way to guarantee attendance at plays/sports days/carol services etc etc is to take a day's holiday. Schools generally publicise these dates well ahead of time so this can be done. It really isn't the end of the world though if you can't make it. Maybe it is being recorded?

OP I think you're being unreasonable on two counts. 1) Bailing on the presentation of a large important project in which you've been "massively involved" (to use your words) without telling anyone. You come across as spoiled. And 2) playing the "Mummy card" in saying that your reason (DD's Nativity play) is more important than someone else's personal life - which your colleague will actually miss out on.

Everybody has the right to a personal life - just because yours is about your children doesn't make it more important than your colleague's.

A good workplace tries to give everyone a good work/life balance, and I'd hope your manager would normally be reasonable about this. But I can completely see your manager's point of view if you want to dip out 2 hours early from your rostered shift on a day when your team (you were "massively involved" remember?) delivers its big project.

The trouble with digging something out on the Internet without any actual, you know, knowledge yourself is you end up spouting nonsense

^ this!

Drew please check your facts before copying and pasting and assuming it is correct.

flowery has it spot on.