AIBU to think it's very hard to LTB if you're Irish?

[TirNaNog100]

I’m not disputing that it’s often right - and necessary- to LTB. I usually agree with the advice given on the Relationships board. But I think that it’s often overlooked that cultural context may make this very difficult to do, even in cultures ostensibly quite similar.

I’m thinking specifically of Ireland, where I have returned after many years in London. From what I see, there is a world of difference between how ‘broken’ marriages are viewed in the UK and in Ireland. Among my Irish circle of friends, I don’t know anybody who is divorced. Not one couple. The same applies to my husband’s friends. And those of my three sisters. I live in the country so I accept there is probably a Dublin/rural divide going on, but I think divorce and separation are also rare in Dublin.

This train of thought was prompted by recently attending a school reunion where only one out of forty women (late thirties) was divorced. And by considering my parents-in-law wretched marriage – my MIL will soon be celebrating forty years of being tethered to a violent, manic drunk. It is accepted here that women of her generation really had no way of exiting horrific relationships. But despite greater financial freedom and legal rights, I'm not sure the situation has changed that much. Would love to know other mumsnetters' views?

That's interesting Maryz and I agree that no one here seems to get married very young. My family was all a bit shocked when my then 21 year old cousin got married two years ago. She's American though and it's much more common there obviously. Family travelled over for the wedding and she married a nice guy, but they are both so young. When I think of who I was with when I was 21 ... I can't imagine ever having married him!

It’s deeply ingrained in our national psyche that marriage isn’t something we can easily get out of. Hence the caution.

That's true, Squoosh about the Eternal Noose of Marriage in the national psyche.

I've been pondering recently my uncle and his wife's anger and dismay when their beloved only son announced he was marrying his fiancée in a civil ceremony in a Dublin hotel, despite the fact that their son was a responsible 34 year old who had never shown any interest in religion after his confirmation - they didn't speak to him for nearly six months!

They seemed to think both that it was somehow slightly hole and corner, even a bit 'dirty', and not a 'proper' wedding, and my mother, when she told me about the wedding afterwards kept stressing that 'it was quite nice, really', as though I too might think it was not quite the real deal, or that the couple 'weren't let marry' in church because the fiancée (a nice, blameless Tipperary teacher!) had a dirty secret, like a previous marriage! She referenced several times that it was 'quite like a church wedding without the mass, and she wore white and everything, so I don't know why they didn't just do it the usual way.' (I did point out that not only had I myself married in a UK registry office, I didn't even invite anyone... ).

Honestly, it was all very Gothic. But I think Squoosh is right that for some of my parents' generation, marriage as an indissoluble sacrament AND legal bond is a huge deal, so that any marriage you can actually be legally done with is both shameful and 'cheating'. Also, of course, no matter what you do legally, unless you manage to have it annulled, if you marry in the Catholic church, you are married forever, from their POV.

I suspect that may have had something to do with my cousins marriage too Maryz, although neither party are ultra religious (I don't think) but the 'wait until marriage' attitude runs deep over there.

I think I know two under 25 year olds in Dublin who are married, but then one is quite conservative Catholic Mexican and the other is....well, very conservative Irish Catholic .

I think for the younger generation delaying marriage is partly due to money, partly having fun in twenties and settling down late, and partly not wanting to. I hear a lot on here about English people doing buffet weddings, small weddings, weddings in the village hall (which my English cousin did, incidentally). I think that's a great idea but I don't see it reflected in Irish people I know - weddings seem to be usually more of a production. So saving up is a big issue I suppo.

It must have been so depressing for people waking up a few months after their wedding realising they didn't love or perhaps even like their spouse. And even more depressing still to know that you'd made your marital bed and would just have to lie in it for the next 40 years.

Like living in a William Trevor short story.

And yes to people's fear of registry office weddings. My aunt's comment would be 'oh, very bohemian'. Bohemian in her world being shorthand for 'godless, virgin sacrificing, barbarians'.

Hopefully now there's marriage equality in Ireland civil ceremonies will become much more commonplace and stop being viewed with such suspicion and pity.

We had a small wedding (by Irish standards) of 80 people, but it wasn't cheap...

Yes, I'm entirely charmed by the novelty of English weddings where it is perfectly normal to have twenty or fifty people which involve self-decorated village hall buffets or pub lunches or a barbecue in someone's garden. The only Irish weddings I've been to which haven't involved 200 guests in the Clonmel Lodge Hotel with beef or chicken, the parish priest saying grace, and Great Auntie Nuala doing the Birdie Dance have been civil partnerships.

I've been accused of being a brazen hussy "bohemian" a few times all right squoosh

Neither of my weddings took place in a church, but that's probably just the tip of my bohemian iceberg.

I love being bohemian

I've been to two weddings of friends who had English partners (both weddings took place in Ireland). At both weddings the English half of the group all wandered off to bed before midnight leaving the Irish crew to boogie the night away and fall into bed, after a singsong, in the wee small hours. Is that normal for an English wedding, earlier finish?

The difference in the type of presents given was quite obvious too, with the Irish contingent giving the usual (too?) high amount of money/vouchers and the English crowd much smaller gifts. I know that's normal though, due to the present giving convention being quite different.

CastaDiva and Fitzers -- not just calling it 'Eire' but pronouncing it 'eerie' and other improbable contortions.

Wrt marrying young -- I was shocked to hear the phrase 'a ring by spring' used by university students in the US. DD2 has a friend whose sister got married in the spring of her last year at university, and the phenomenon is widespread enough to warrant the phrase. It was very much the done thing back in the 50s but I naively thought nobody in their right mind would consider it a sane option now. Getting your MRS degree is still a thing apparently in some circles.

When I got married (1988, in Dublin) I threw my bouquet over my shoulder and all the single women ran away from it , but at weddings I went to in the US shortly afterwards there was always a mad scramble to catch it. My wedding was actually quite small, with a buffet meal, for various reasons. However, some of my cousins have had Cecil B. DeMille style productions that they paid for themselves, and all have been well established in their careers before tying the knot. Many family members (on my dad's side) have had non RC ceremonies, registry office weddings, etc. One cousin a couple of decades ago had to jump through all kinds of hoops to marry a Lutheran -- this threw the RC diocese admin into a tailspin for some reason..

There were a few students from Plymouth Brethren families at my south Dublin school back in the late 70s, early 80s. They married young and within their community. I don't know how happy clappy they were but they certainly had a set notion that marriage should follow the Leaving Cert, with perhaps college for the boys.

I wasn't intending to reprimand anybody on this thread! I just got carried away with the tangent. Anyway, back to the main business.... a friend of mine, she married an American at 22. He was the one who suggested it. We all thought they were mad. She had just finished university too. Maybe he thought she expected it but it wouldn't have occurred to her. She has been so lucky that it worked out. More accident than design. I thought she was mad, but here we are more than two decades later, she has a happy marriage and I'm a single parent!

Casta I had salmon and lamb in Adare and Auntie Brid did the funky chicken with the actual priest. I was groundbreaking obvs.

In Eastenders, when someone is getting married, the hen night, stag night, and reception are always, ALWAYS, in the Queen Vic. What the fuck is that all about?

Late to the thread & haven't read it all yet, but Fitzers you could have been describing my wedding in your post above, only mine took place in England. As you say, all the English guests went off to bed before midnight, while the Irish contingent continued partying into the early hours, singalong & all. We had a fabulous time. The quaint little hotel we'd taken over had never seen anything like it. And all the Irish guests spent much more on the wedding presents. I was quite shocked at the generosity, being the English half of the partnership.

irishdad I suspect it's so that they don't have to build a new set!

My mum's family are all in their 70s and 80s now, and they are all mad dancers. They have encountered a few in-law families that are similarly inclined and there have been some quare weddings.