AIBU to think it's very hard to LTB if you're Irish?

[TirNaNog100]

I’m not disputing that it’s often right - and necessary- to LTB. I usually agree with the advice given on the Relationships board. But I think that it’s often overlooked that cultural context may make this very difficult to do, even in cultures ostensibly quite similar.

I’m thinking specifically of Ireland, where I have returned after many years in London. From what I see, there is a world of difference between how ‘broken’ marriages are viewed in the UK and in Ireland. Among my Irish circle of friends, I don’t know anybody who is divorced. Not one couple. The same applies to my husband’s friends. And those of my three sisters. I live in the country so I accept there is probably a Dublin/rural divide going on, but I think divorce and separation are also rare in Dublin.

This train of thought was prompted by recently attending a school reunion where only one out of forty women (late thirties) was divorced. And by considering my parents-in-law wretched marriage – my MIL will soon be celebrating forty years of being tethered to a violent, manic drunk. It is accepted here that women of her generation really had no way of exiting horrific relationships. But despite greater financial freedom and legal rights, I'm not sure the situation has changed that much. Would love to know other mumsnetters' views?

ps, when my dc1 went in to junior infants there was only one other single parent family. 28 children I think, so two did not have a mum and a dad still married. 8 years later when she left the school it was quarter of the class. And last week I heard that the parents of a boy my dc1 was at school with, although they're at different secondaries now, his parents are splitting up.

So I wonder if you;re still at the junior infant "start of the race".
When youre child is about to go to secondary school, come back to us and tell us that no couples split up!

I'm from BIG BAD DUBLIN of course and I think it's the only place to be from if you deviate from the norm in any way.

Stepmum and three of my stepsibs are separated from their spouse (dad and stepmum not married but I call them step fsmily for ease). They all have new partners. It seems divorce is less common but failed marriages on a par with the UK.

But I think that fewer than 10% of Irish marriages split, which would seem to indicate that there is social pressure for couples to stay together. Do you think?

I don't know. I only know one divorced person, the only person I know who married before 30.

Shins: yes, most of my friends/family are only nominally Catholic too (at best), but it looks like the influence of Catholicism has run deep, and the low level of marital break-up is a function of this. Would you agree? It seems like my generation (I am 38) was the last generation of bona fide Catholic Ireland in terms of weekly Mass attendance, Lenten resolutions. confirmation pledges, and the rest.

Irish living in Dublin and don't know very many divorced people at all, although I do know one person who is twice divorced (through work). I'm only 5 years married though and most of my friends and family of my generation are not long married (if they are) so it's too early to tell. No divorces among my parents or their families, or my husbands either. Interestingly enough my parents met when they were sixteen and my mothers siblings (my two aunts and one uncle) all met their husbands/wives when they were teenagers and all are still together and seem very happy.

I also agree that there is more emphasis on the children in this type of discussion on Irish message boards than there is on mumsnet. The prevailing view on here is that children will be happier/better off if their parents are ultimately happier apart. I'm not saying I disagree with that but it wouldn't be the view I've heard most commonly expressed here in Ireland.

OH I thought you had split up from your H and that you were going through this!

Apologies for the total misunderstanding!

Fitzers: yes, I think there is a prevailing view on Mumsnet that happy parents = happy children, and that Irish people do not (generally) subscribe to that view.

This though has got me thinking about what, short of abuse, it would take for me to leave my husband. I can't really think of anything.

Chippy: no apologies necessary. I am indeed questioning my marriage, and whether it's better for me and/or the kids to stay or to leave. And whether my thinking would be the same in the UK (where I lived for twelve years) or in Ireland.

I think there are some class issues at play too. In certain circles it's just not 'successful' to be divorced (unless you have tons of money and work it like Jackie Collins, then it's fine, all is forgiven). But it's not Catholicism doing all of the judging, there's also the gimlet eye of the solidly respectable middle class. Poverty embarrasses them slightly. An odd number of chairs around the dinner table? Embarrassing.

My mother couldn't care less if one in three children in Ireland is born to parents who aren't married but she would see it as slightly 'shabby'. It's a class pressure. For me that is the only slight pressure I felt. And to be fair to my parents they were determined to put me first and sod any of their siblings or neighbours or friends.

Tirnanog100

There are loads of divorces and separations among the parents at my DC's school, however it may not be the norm as it's a Protestant school in Dublin.

One thing I would say about Ireland is that it's an incredible slog to get divorced, it takes ages and the partner who doesn't want to get divorced holds a lot of power. Even if both want to get divorced and are co-operative it's far more convoluted than in the UK. I would be divorced now if it weren't for the fact that my husband was going to make sure that life would be totally miserable for the DC (while blaming me for ruining their lives). I suspect there are a lot of couples living like us, separate bedrooms, very little social conversation, but reasonably good co-parenting. My plan is to scarper when the DC are adult enough to choose who to live with. I probably won't get divorced then either, if I'm not living with him I what do I care whether we're married or not, it wouldn't be worth the legal fees. That will probably skew the divorce statistics somewhat.

Class pressure, yes I'd agree to a certain extent. There's still a certain amount of shame/stigma attached to divorce or separation (in some circles) as it's not yet as common as in the UK.

I also personally believe that while it would be understood that a marriage has broken down if there was abuse/mistreatment/cheating/substance abuse, simply being unhappy or having 'fallen out of love' wouldn't be viewed as a good reason by many and there'd be pressure then to 'think of the children' and to muddle through.

I also suspect that there may be many more people living separately in their marriages in Ireland but cannot take formal steps as they simply can't afford to. House prices, salary cuts, job losses in recent years would leave many not able to afford to run two houses for example.

Chippy: re class issues. Yes, I agree. I think that relationship break-up is seen as the preserve of 'dodgy' areas (or conversely, for people higher up the social scale) . People like my mother think it's grand for very posh people, or for people in bad parts of town, but it' not ok for respectable people.

I think people get divorced if they either have nothing to lose, or if they have enough that they can divide up and still come out with somewhere habitable each.

Movembersucks, that's dreadful. You shouldn't endure that indefinitely.

OP i agree. I am irish, originally from Dublin, born and bred, now i live in a rural community in the north of ireland. None of my dublin friends are divorced and there are very few separated, let alone divorced, couples here in the small town where i live now.

I do believe that despite the decline of the catholic church in society, divorce is still seen as the nuclear option, only to be used in dire awful marriages, and that many people in unhappy marriages do not see divorce as an option, partly because irish society is still largely conservative and people still worry about the stigma attached to divorce and the dread of the "broken home".

Certainly in rural areas, at least where i live, divorce is rare, and when it happens is seen as a huge deal, a terrible thing for the kids etc. Unless a spouse is outright abusive or agressive, people do not feel they have a right to split a family, just because they are unhappy.

I hate the nature of irish society in this way, there is a sort of unspoken judgmentalism which stops people from leaving unhappy marriages, they stay not because they want to, but because they fear the judgment of their community/peers and the sense of failure in themselves as people and parents.

Fitzers, yes, I agree with that, it'd be seen as a bit self-indulgent to announce that you'd fallen out of love. I mean, if a friend told me that I'd be supportive and sympathetic but I can imagine the judgers saying "love? seriously!?"

I think it's a pity if the message on Irish chat boards is "think of the children"
I'm Irish living in Dublin. I am a single parent never married. My sis is separated will probably divorce after the four year rule which is ridiculous by the way!

I wish my parents had separated when me and my siblings were children. We grew up with two very unhappy parents which ultimately made us miserable. They were Catholics and believed they should stay married regardless of the state of the marriage. I don't believe you should walk away at the first hint of trouble but relationships can be tough and need to be worked at but not because of some silly religious "rule"

I have known women and some men stay in violent abusive relationships because it would be frowned upon to end the marriage (in Ireland)

I think some Irish women more than Irish men stay in a marriage out of some responsibility to their old school Catholic parents. The UK don't seem to have this silly attitude. Lucky Them!

Movember sucks: your situation sounds so lonely. I completely sympathise.

I must be living in a parallel universe. I know loads of divorced people including a Traveller woman (and they'd be very traditional)

Same here scarletforya, I also know a divorced traveller woman. It actually is heart warming to see that. Not a word you'd connect to divorce but it is so encouraging to see that bravery, in that community.

There's no stigma among the people that I know, or in my family. Everyone was very supportive when I thought I would get divorced (although, wisely, they did not ask about the reasons). But my Mother was very concerned that H would take all my (inherited from her side of the family) money if we divorced, which he was absolutely planning to do.

I will be financially better off not divorcing him because there is no final settlement in Ireland, an ex-spouse can go back to court looking for more money at any time in the future. What H was setting up was that he would take half my inheritance and I would have half of his shares in his business. But his business has offices in several different countries, and it's very much based on his skills and contacts (it's a type of consultancy), so he could simply let it wind up and go bankrupt, and transfer all his contracts into a new company in a different country. So my shares would be worthless, and he would have no assets in Ireland. Then, once he retires, he would be able to take me to court for a chunk of whatever I have left because he would have no income and no assets in Ireland. He was also insistent that our DC would be with him half the time, down to the hour, and with an exact split of week days and weekends (as he was entitled to a social life too ) and one of our DC would be completely unable to cope with changing house every couple of nights (which H knows and was relying on to put me off).

No I'm not saying the message on Irish chats boards is nothing but 'think of the children' but I've certainly seen more of an emphasis on the impact of divorce/separation on children in a negative way, than here on mumsnet where it often comes across more as a positive thing to do - happy parents equals happy children is the message you'd often see here.

I'm not taking sides on that, just noting some possible cultural differences.

Tirnanog- I agree there's a residual Catholic influence on our generation in our attitude to marriage that we probably don't like to admit because we've jettisoned the more obvious trappings. But it runs deep. I would never put up with any abusive situation but I'd see divorce as a nuclear option and I would probably see it differently had I grown up somewhere else.