AIBU to think it's very hard to LTB if you're Irish?

[TirNaNog100]

I’m not disputing that it’s often right - and necessary- to LTB. I usually agree with the advice given on the Relationships board. But I think that it’s often overlooked that cultural context may make this very difficult to do, even in cultures ostensibly quite similar.

I’m thinking specifically of Ireland, where I have returned after many years in London. From what I see, there is a world of difference between how ‘broken’ marriages are viewed in the UK and in Ireland. Among my Irish circle of friends, I don’t know anybody who is divorced. Not one couple. The same applies to my husband’s friends. And those of my three sisters. I live in the country so I accept there is probably a Dublin/rural divide going on, but I think divorce and separation are also rare in Dublin.

This train of thought was prompted by recently attending a school reunion where only one out of forty women (late thirties) was divorced. And by considering my parents-in-law wretched marriage – my MIL will soon be celebrating forty years of being tethered to a violent, manic drunk. It is accepted here that women of her generation really had no way of exiting horrific relationships. But despite greater financial freedom and legal rights, I'm not sure the situation has changed that much. Would love to know other mumsnetters' views?

Hmm, don't Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland together make up Ireland? Bit rood to be all 'it's fine to say just Northern Ireland and Ireland'. Bit like if North Koreans were like 'oh WE'RE Korea, we just call them South Korea, you can too.'

Booyaka

"I don't necessarily think it's wrong, because it is in a southerly direction on the island of Ireland."

The most northern part of the Island of Ireland is not Northern Ireland. It is the Inishowen peninsula in Donegal. All of Northern Ireland is in a southern direction to that.

Hmm, don't Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland together make up Ireland? Bit rood to be all 'it's fine to say just Northern Ireland and Ireland'. Bit like if North Koreans were like 'oh WE'RE Korea, we just call them South Korea, you can too.'

Err no, just no. The Irish Constitution says: "The name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland". It's the official name of the country.

Plenty of Irish people refer to the republic as the South...

Fitzers, that might be so. But a lot of Republicans won't call the Republic just Ireland as they do not believe that 'Ireland' is 26 states but 32.

It doesn't really matter how pedantic people want to get on this thread, but there's no general agreement on how it should be referred to even amongst the Irish.

CastaDiva -

My grandad was an ex British military officer from a family of Castle Catholics who were strangely enough ardent nationalists. He had relatives who were Jesuit professors of moral theology and the likes. His father was a friend of Parnell's. His brothers were all members of the legal profession and dedicated Republicans.

Grandad retired in 1916 after a WWI injury, settled back in Ireland with his family and immediately began to set up Sinn Fein courts in a SE county. He and granny hid IRA men in their home, and continued through the civil war. The Black and Tans set fire to their house on one occasion. He was left leaning in his own way not in the sense of being progressive on social issues, but politically/ economically a socialist whose only problem with Labour was that they were not primarily republican and supported Constance Markiewicz and several other lefty republicans financially, including Liam Mellows' bereft mother.

He and the local PP hated each other and fought continuously over matters large and small. The PP was apparently pro treaty and subsequently a supporter of the Blueshirts, and one day in the course of a sermon he brandished a blue handkerchief and waved it around. Grandad had no time for fascists, was horrified by the rise of the Nazis, anti semitism, etc. So he and Granny they used to disregard the convention of men sitting on the left and women and children on the right of the church; the family all sat together got up from the front pew and marched everyone out all the way down the long middle aisle. There was no rebuke of any kind from anyone, perhaps because Grandad's brother was a FF minister from 1933 to 1948, or perhaps due to many Jesuit connections.

.....

Ireland (or Eire) is the name of the state. Britain can be referred to separately from NI the political entity doesn't have to be called the UK because iirc not all laws or rights applicable in Britain (i.e. the island comprised of the political entities of England, Scotland and Wales) are in force in NI. British Isles is a general name for the islands of Britain and Ireland used in the context of geography. The term has no political relevance.

*everyone in their large family, not the whole church

It's the official, legal, diplomatic etc name of the state. You can say I'm being pedantic all you like but it was implied above that calling the country Ireland was 'rude' given there's NI as well. That's a nonsense statement and I was pointing out why.

Regardless of the lack of 'general' agreement Booyaka Ireland is the actual name of the country.

Sorry Fitzers, I misunderstood your post a bit. And it wasn't actually you I was calling pedantic, but that wasn't very clear.

Yes, you're right, that's the name of the state. But I do think people who insist referring to it in what they think are correct terms are being pedantic and a bit ignorant of the semantics around the name.

Fair enough Booyaka I was trying to help settle the back and forth on the issue but I accept there's a lot of cultural/political factors influencing what people will call the country.

I'm Irish but to me talking / typing in England and then throwing Eire in looks so effected. You're talking in English or Irish. Why translate that one word? If I were talking about going to Italia on my holidays next year, or this bag? lovely isn't it, from Italia doncha know....... i

*english

Mathanxiety, that's all very interesting! Has your family got involved with the people's stories for the centenary? My Dad's grandfather was shot (by accident) but my Dad has told his story (there's more too but don't want to out myself, as all our relatives would know it). Good to get all of these people's stories down on paper.

I don't think it's necessarily rude to say Ireland when referring to ROI, the 26 counties, the 'south' or whatever, although some northern nationalists have imho understandable issues with it. It's just confusing sometimes because 'Ireland' also refers to the island in its entirety. But as a general rule, I don't think we've sorted the naming thing out particularly brilliantly. That's true of all the relevant islands too- the British Isles is very problematic but there isn't really another term that does the job either. 'These islands' only works when you're on one of them. Can't very well say it when you're in the Caribbean. North Atlantic archipelago is geographically accurate but too much of a mouthful to catch on. Anglo-Celtic Isles has been proposed but isn't entirely historically accurate either... so we're a bit stuck.

Who throws in Eire Chippy? All along some have us have been saying there are two official names - Eire if you are speaking Irish and Ireland if you are speaking English. Ireland is the name we've all been using here, as we are writing in English.

No comment on divorce Maryz please! Get us back on track..

There was supposed to be a comma after that no....

Thanks, Math. Very interesting as an instance of the workings of social class in a country where class isn't much talked of, compared to England.

On 'Eire' - bear in mind the history of its usage by the UK, too - this is a cut and paste from Wikipedia, as I'm rushing, but I think accurate in this instance to the best of my knowledge. Yes, it is the official name of the state in Irish, but was used in a slanted way by the UK in the years after independence :

The United Kingdom insisted on using only the name "Eire" and refused to accept the name "Ireland". It adopted the Eire (Confirmation of Agreements) Act 1938 putting in law that position. At the 1948 Summer Olympics the organisers insisted that the Irish team march under the banner "Eire" notwithstanding that every other team was marching according to what their name was in English.[6] The UK Government used what some Irish politicians stated were "sneering titles such as Eirish".[7] The UK Government would refer to "Eire Ministers" and the "Eireann Army" and generally avoid all reference to "Ireland" in connection with the state.

This kind of post-imperial arrogance still rankles slightly with me when I get people 'correcting' my usage of 'Ireland', which, in the 1937 constitution, is the name of the state in English.

Best way to hijack a thread full of Irish mumsnetters? Someone call the place 'southern Ireland' - massive off topic debate follows

Sorry, continued thread hijack - I had genuinely forgotten it was about divorce!

TurduckenForDinner that sounds like an utterly miserable existence. Are you not tempted to bail and to hell with the financial consequences?

I did think that was very interesting CastaDiva, hijack or no. I'd forgotten about the use of Eire by the UK government.