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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to think it's very hard to LTB if you're Irish?

221 replies

TirNaNog100 · 04/12/2015 22:40

I’m not disputing that it’s often right - and necessary- to LTB. I usually agree with the advice given on the Relationships board. But I think that it’s often overlooked that cultural context may make this very difficult to do, even in cultures ostensibly quite similar.

I’m thinking specifically of Ireland, where I have returned after many years in London. From what I see, there is a world of difference between how ‘broken’ marriages are viewed in the UK and in Ireland. Among my Irish circle of friends, I don’t know anybody who is divorced. Not one couple. The same applies to my husband’s friends. And those of my three sisters. I live in the country so I accept there is probably a Dublin/rural divide going on, but I think divorce and separation are also rare in Dublin.

This train of thought was prompted by recently attending a school reunion where only one out of forty women (late thirties) was divorced. And by considering my parents-in-law wretched marriage – my MIL will soon be celebrating forty years of being tethered to a violent, manic drunk. It is accepted here that women of her generation really had no way of exiting horrific relationships. But despite greater financial freedom and legal rights, I'm not sure the situation has changed that much. Would love to know other mumsnetters' views?

OP posts:
mathanxiety · 06/12/2015 07:45

I am Irish and divorced, though not living in Ireland. I have an uncle (and former aunt) who are now both in their late 70s who are separated (as divorce wasn't legal at the time their marriage broke down and neither one could be bothered as time went on). More in my own generation and up to the mid 60s in age, I have a few divorced cousins. Come to think of it, a great uncle of mine had his marriage annulled, before divorce was legal back in the days of King Edward VIII, when annulment was a huge deal. I knew of someone else who had an annulment, in the 70s. Annulment was very much the preserve of the wealthy though. (My dad's family got away with a lot of things that would have been frowned upon if they had had less money. My grandad once marched the whole family out of Mass, and carried on open warfare with the PP for most of the late 1920s and 1930s.)

I agree with Oik that in some circles marriage is a status symbol and divorce just wouldn't be done except by true rebels or people who were prepared to completely opt out of the lives they knew, because they would be dropped like hot potatoes, especially by insecure female friends. The Irish status-conscious middle classes are the most sheep-like people in the world and the herd instinct is very strong. My sister knows a lot of couples who 'own' several mortgages that are all in negative equity -- on the surface they are prosperous people who managed to hang onto their properties through the crisis but underneath many of the husbands are working M-F in London to pay 90% more monthly than what their properties are worth. There are a lot of surface-level charades being played out in Dublin right now, lots of 'show' in financial and relationship matters. Ireland is a country where 'face' is important. It is quite Asian in that respect.

I know quite a few divorced Irish women and men who are my age, but also a lot of women who were always single mothers, whose children were born the year after the Leaving, plus some who decided to have children as single mothers once their careers were established, with partners both male and female. I know people who separated for a while but got back together again. I know 'serial monogamists' who have children with three different fathers. I know someone who thought having a child with her BF would make him leave his wife and his existing children for her. I disagree with IrishDad that Irish people give children and relationships more thought, in general. Those couples I know who live together have decided to do so mostly because they have cast off all the trappings of organised religion. I think many also thought their own parents' lives were a sham, outwardly conforming to the expectations of the church but roiling underneath.

These would be mostly people I went to school with. I grew up in the south side of Dublin, went to a convent primary and community school for secondary. 'Residual Catholic influence' was most definitely in full retreat on the south side of Dublin even in the 70s and 80s. I knew fellow students even in the late 70s whose parents were separated. The people my sister knows would be fellow parents from an expensive all girls' school in an expensive postal code.

I remember having insane debates with my mother during the divorce referendum era and banging my head on the wall at her insistence that essentially marriage exists as an entity regardless of how completely unmarried one or both parties to it behave habitual drunkenness, wife beating, cheating, incest, etc once two people married then 'the marriage' existed as an entity. She couldn't conceive of the terms 'good marriage' or 'bad marriage' having any meaning. Marriage was marriage, and that was that. Once it existed, you put up with it, and to hear her talk, in most cases it was a grim and joyless affair.

She told stories from her childhood observations of young women from poor small farms being married off to old men with bigger farms, women who were practically chained to the kitchen sink and never allowed any autonomy or say in how money was spent, women whom my granny used to feed and support because their husbands drank every penny from the farm and women whose lazy, feckless husbands lost their farms because the banks foreclosed. I honestly couldn't equate any of what she said with a sacrament and neither could she. But she still thought divorce was not right and that its existence would threaten 'marriage', which she considered to have its own existence separate from the lives of the actual people sentenced to lives of misery within its walls. Much the same thought as those opposing gay marriage had I suppose.

One of the things that made her think a bit about her cast iron notions of duty and fulfillment of expectations was the fact that a cousin of hers left the priesthood, sick to the teeth of how his diocese was run, years before the sex abuse scandals hit the news. Priesthood was another of those immutable/written in stone things that she assumed you were stuck with for life. It turned out not to be so.

Many years later I broke the news to her that exH and I were splitting, and she couldn't have been more supportive of my decision. It broke her heart that I would have to sell my house (the law where I am treats the house as a marital debt that must be paid off if there is a mortgage) and my children would lose their home. I think there is a strong Irish attachment to 'home', which perhaps explains the reluctance to uproot children through divorce, or to change their lives in a significant manner -- with less income, etc. available to them than a married couple would have.

TheVeryThing · 06/12/2015 08:03

I really don't see much residual Catholic influence over my generation, not when so many people are having children without ever marrying and civil weddings are so popular. But maybe I just don't want to believe it's still there.

Divorce should definitely be made easier, as the decision to leave usually comes after years of unhappiness or even abuse. It's cruel to force people to remain married for another 4 years.
How can you determine what the optimum divorce rate is, I wonder?

MaisieDotes · 06/12/2015 08:33

In practice there's quite a lot of flexibility on the four year thing though.

My mother is currently going through her second divorce Shock and the separation is being taken to have occurred from a few years ago when the first cracks appeared, even though they stayed together for several further years. I think the question is, when did you leave the marital bed?

If there's enough evidence that things weren't rosy in the garden from x date you can show that the marriage was effectively over from then.

MsJuniper · 06/12/2015 08:55

I would agree with the OP based on my limited knowledge. DSIL (Dublin) has been through a very unpleasant separation and didn't even tell her workplace for several months, all her friends and extended family are married and she has found it very hard to get people to understand what she has gone through and the practical difficulties of being a single mum. My ILs are Catholic but very modern progressive types - they have been hugely supportive but I know she feels very isolated.

I would imagine that the fear of this isolation alone would keep some people in unpleasant marriages.

FannyTheChampionOfTheWorld · 06/12/2015 09:47

British people are getting married and having children far, far too young, before they're emotionally or financially ready to do so......that's how you get a 42% divorce rate.

How do you square this with the fact that people marrying for the second or third time are much more likely to get divorced than those who are doing it for the first time? One assumes the average age of people embarking on a second marriage is higher than the average age of people embarking on their first. Your theory doesn't do a very good job at taking account of this irishdad.

Additionally, contrary to your claim, the mean age for first birth in Ireland and in the UK is pretty similar, as far as I could tell. 29.6 years in 2013 according to this document:

www.parliament.uk/documents/commons/lib/research/olympic-britain/olympicbritain.pdf#page=23

And 30.3 years in Ireland for the same year:

www.thejournal.ie/birth-statistics-ireland-2008660-Mar2015/

These are hardly colossal differences. Women in Ireland are not, as a group, having their first baby considerably later than women in the UK.

FannyTheChampionOfTheWorld · 06/12/2015 09:57

I agree with math's point about the Irish attachment to home too. I'm English Catholic of mixed British and Irish descent, DH is Irish, and in the community I grew up in Irish was probably the dominant cultural influence. There have been a couple of divorces in both of our extended families, but plenty more staying in difficult marriages and never really contemplating ending things. They're not anti-divorce, it's just often seen as something that happens to other people. In some cases, that came with what I viewed at the time as an illogical attachment to bricks and mortar and the children being able to remain within them. And with certain parties refusing to up and leave their home because it was theirs, even if it would clearly be in the best interests of the children for this to happen. It's cultural I guess.

pretend · 06/12/2015 11:49

I couldn't wait to get properly divorced from my ex. We had to wait a year and it was horrible, having a legal link to someone who was so cruel and horrid. It was important for my mental health to get completely free of him, and I can't imagine how I would have managed if I'd had to endure being linked to him for 4 years.

mathanxiety · 07/12/2015 00:54

I don't see Irish people considering a house to be a step on the property ladder as British people often do, even in places where the property market got very hot. Maybe it comes from having a predominantly farming population, or one that used to be mostly tied to a specific little piece of the land, and in Dublin a huge tenement dwelling population in which people loved their houses once they got them.

FannyTheChampionOfTheWorld · 07/12/2015 08:26

My family never really did the step on the property ladder thing. I don't know if that's to do with being of Irish descent or not. I agree I think it's to do with the old custom of being tied to a piece of land. Reminds me of the comments in Star Of The Sea, I think it was, about the peasants in the famine preferring the land to run fallow than to be farmed by someone not born on it.

CastaDiva · 07/12/2015 09:49

I no longer live in Ireland, but agree with math that, with divorce illegal for so long, many people of my parents' generation lived separately under one roof, or 'unofficially' apart for decades - in fact I knew of one couple with young ish children whose appalling period of about eight years sharing the same house after the traumatic breakdown of their marriage (he lived upstairs, she lived downstairs, kitchen access and the children were strictly shared between the two - it was the unhappiest set of four walls I have ever set foot inside) was only belatedly ended by the divorce legislation.

But some people never bothered divorcing, because they felt they'd been done with that relationship for years. I can think of quite a few people in their sixties who have never divorced but are in happy subsequent cohabiting relationships.

I do also know two couples who managed the endless, exacting process of getting an annulment from the Church, pre-divorce legislation in the 80s. From what I gather, that was (still is?) an incredibly intrusive, lengthy process where whether the marriage has irretrievably brken down is not relevant, you need to prove that under canon law, there was never a valid marriage (intimidation, withholding of serious information by one spouse, lack of mental capacity etc).

Math*, can you say more without outing your family, as to what led your grandfather to stalking out of church with his family? And you're right, that anecdote alone shows the importance of social class - my forebears were mostly farm labourers (there are several lost small farms in the last few generations), and more less likely to be resistant.

Boomingmarvellous · 07/12/2015 10:53

Years ago they did an interview with an Irish woman talking about Southern Ireland introducing divorce laws, and she was anti divorce saying she had to tolerate a bad marriage so why shouldn't other women Shock

It was an appalling attitude even then. I think this disapproval still lingers in some areas.

bibliomania · 07/12/2015 10:58

I'm Irish, divorced and living in the UK, and I do think it's easier to be divorced here. Mind you, I married a foreigner, so the various aunts and neighbours and cousins wouldn't be surprised that I couldn't make it stick.

I agree with the point about Irish people feeling a strong attachment to home, and it's not just a house, but an area. Watching shows like Escape to the Country, I do feel a slight cultural difference when I see people cast their net so wide and being so prepared to go to places where they have no ties. Of course I'm not saying that people stay rooted to the same spot in Ireland, but I think there can be a sense in rural areas of an established community. The downside of that is that people are interested in your business. I'm glad to escape that (disclaimer here - I am from Kerry so possibly at the more extreme end).

I also don't see as much serial monogamy in Ireland as I do in the UK.

abbieanders · 07/12/2015 11:33

Just on a point of pedantry, there's no country called "Southern Ireland".

TurduckenForDinner · 07/12/2015 11:45

There isn't abbie, but it's a useful differentiator between NI and the republic as they have different laws. I can't get worked up about it, although plenty of other Southern Irish people get quite frothy about it.

abbieanders · 07/12/2015 11:49

Me included. I find it irritating to be informed about the laws and attitudes of the country I live in by someone who doesn't even know what it's called.

Fitzers · 07/12/2015 11:59

I agree with Abbie, there's NI and then there's Ireland, no need for the 'southern' as a differentiator.

TurduckenForDinner · 07/12/2015 12:02

But 'Ireland' is a bit unclear to foreigners, because there is both a country and an island with the name and they are not the same. It probably seems very logical that if the whole place is Ireland and you want to talk about the bit that isn't Northern Ireland then Southern Ireland is what's left when you remove the Northern bit.

I take a Dutch stance, Holland is not the same as The Netherlands, but none of my Dutch acquaintances can be bothered to get worked up about it.

squoosh · 07/12/2015 12:08

I can't get worked up about it either. Northern Ireland is an official place name so I see why people plump for 'Southern Ireland' in order to differentiate.

'The British Isles' irritates me though.

Booyaka · 07/12/2015 12:11

I think there's probably a better balance somewhere between the two. There was a pretty horrible family murder/suicide last Christmas in Ireland. Reading the history of it I couldn't understand why the wife hadn't left him. He'd already been tried for trying to kill her mother to steal her house but he'd got away with that because it was accepted court he'd had a stress induced breakdown due to financial problems.

But I do think that attitudes in England go a bit too far the other way. There seems to be an attitude that if you're not 100% happy for your entire married life then it's fine to jettison it. I think a lot of people never realise that marriages have peaks and troughs, because they hit the first trough and give in.

And I don't think the relationships board on here is some sort of beacon of good sense and moderation. As far as I can see on there unless your DH is an emotionless Stepford husk who works full time and does 80% of the childcare and housework and accepts endless criticism and berating without so much as raising his voice in response, had no social life or interest in his side of the family then the general advice is LTB.

squoosh · 07/12/2015 12:11

YY re. Holland/The Netherlands. I'm never quite sure what the difference is so feel it would be rude of me to get annoyed at foreigners saying Southern Ireland.

IoraRua · 07/12/2015 12:16

Agreed with being annoyed by the British Isles and Southern Ireland (and people trying to correct you and calling it Eire - I can use my country's name, thanks). It's the Republic or Ireland. Grin

Fitzers · 07/12/2015 12:19

It doesn't bother me that much, there's just no need for it. Northern Ireland for the part that's in the UK and just plain Ireland will cover the rest of it.

leedy · 07/12/2015 12:46

I'm in my 40s, Irish, live in Dublin and I have friends and relatives who are divorced, separated, on second relationships, etc. Also quite a lot of couples (DP and I included) who never married at all.

As PP have said, the (relatively) recent legalization of divorce (everyone remember Bean Mhic Mhathuna and us all being a shower of wife-swapping sodomites?) and the length of time it takes to get one could explain a lot of the lower divorce rates without having to assume we are all still in the Valley Of The Squinting Windows awaiting a belt of the crozier for not sticking it out til death us do part.

TurduckenForDinner · 07/12/2015 12:51

The thing is, I think a lot of people think that Ireland is better known that it really is, when really it's an unimportant island at the outer edge of a continent that nobody really thinks about. Even in Britain, which should probably know more about us as we share a fair bit of history, nobody knows enough about us to know which casual reference would bother us and which wouldn't.

I've lived all over the place and, honestly, the rest of the world can barely pick us out on a globe. They don't know what language we speak (I used to get complimented on how good my English was as it was assumed it was a second language for me), an astonishing number of people within the EU think that Ireland is part of Britain and everybody thinks the troubles were about religious differences. It was a surprise to me because growing up in Ireland we were always told about our influence on the world, but I got used to it, and I realised how little I knew about the details of other countries. I didn't know how rude it was to walk in front of someone's line of sight in Malaysia until my H's family corrected me. I didn't know that it's rude to point in Denmark. I didn't know that you are meant to say 'hello' to the shop worker when you go into a small shop in Berlin, or that saying "Ich bin ein Berliner" means "I'm a small doughnut". People don't know that they are getting things wrong, and why should they know? We're not that important.

I can't get upset about 'Southern' Ireland because it shows that the user at least has some awareness that NI is a different country to the Republic and that makes that person more knowledgeable than about 95% of the rest of the world.

leedy · 07/12/2015 12:57

I once had to convince a South African taxi driver that Ireland wasn't a volcano...