AIBU to think it's very hard to LTB if you're Irish?

[TirNaNog100]

I’m not disputing that it’s often right - and necessary- to LTB. I usually agree with the advice given on the Relationships board. But I think that it’s often overlooked that cultural context may make this very difficult to do, even in cultures ostensibly quite similar.

I’m thinking specifically of Ireland, where I have returned after many years in London. From what I see, there is a world of difference between how ‘broken’ marriages are viewed in the UK and in Ireland. Among my Irish circle of friends, I don’t know anybody who is divorced. Not one couple. The same applies to my husband’s friends. And those of my three sisters. I live in the country so I accept there is probably a Dublin/rural divide going on, but I think divorce and separation are also rare in Dublin.

This train of thought was prompted by recently attending a school reunion where only one out of forty women (late thirties) was divorced. And by considering my parents-in-law wretched marriage – my MIL will soon be celebrating forty years of being tethered to a violent, manic drunk. It is accepted here that women of her generation really had no way of exiting horrific relationships. But despite greater financial freedom and legal rights, I'm not sure the situation has changed that much. Would love to know other mumsnetters' views?

The thing is ledgeoffseason, I realise that some marriages, like your parents' one, for one reason or another and despite the best intentions of both parties, just don't work out and the option of divorce, however regrettable, should absolutely be available for those people. But a country having a 42% divorce rate needs to have a serious think about where their society is heading. British people are getting married and having children far, far too young, before they're emotionally or financially ready to do so......that's how you get a 42% divorce rate.

From non- Belfast NI here. Of my English friends, one is divorced (and I have lived here for 20 years). Of my NI friends, one is divorced (and I lived there 18 years). I am the only one who has never married of all my wider circle of school friends and one of two of my 50-odd uni friends. My mother tried to convince me to stay in a physically abusive relationship. She however is divorced after 30 years of physical and mental and financial abuse. Which was awesome fun growing up and is probably the main reason I have never married despite being asked three times. Ireland (the island) can be a very old fashioned place, even amongst the allegedly enlightened middle classes.

Sorry, just did a FB review and two of my friends in England are divorced.

Well irishDad your opinion that people in the uk marry and have kids too young is the only time I have seen it expressed like that.

I'm more used to hearing of these feckless career women in the uk who leave it all way too late.

Fwiw I married at 34 and divorced shortly afterwards. There's no one size fits all rule.

You're coming at this with a basic view of "divorce is a bad thing, and to be avoided". I beg to differ. It's hardly what anyone aims for when they walk down the aisle, but it doesn't have to be the end of the world.

There are as many reasons for people getting divorced as there are married couples out there. You simply can't generalise.

Plus, you "get a 42% divorce rate" when you have highly educated women earning their own money, on salaries which can support a family. You get it when women have too much of self worth to stay in shitty relationships. You get it when women wont be dictated to by church or state to stay in a loveless marriage.

I think that's a good thing.

Just thinking of my friends from college... we're vets, we're 15 years out now. 50:50 male:female in the class at that time. Many from rural background. Rucksacks and brown bread at Bus Áras
The lads definitely settled down first; almost all married by now and most with two or three kids (we're 36, 37, 38ish now).
I was married at 29 and was the first of the girls to get married. Several still now getting engaged, planning weddings, trying for first babies.
No divorces that I can think of.

Irishdad, i mended our broken home when i left.

Exactly pretend.

Who'd want to return to the days of women enduring misery/abuse/alcoholism/selfishness/laziness because they cant afford to split up or because their parish priest tells them to offer their misery up to jesus.

42% may seem high but it's more honest than a lower figure.
A figure of 10% suggests nothing more than financial dependence, inequality, social judging.....

Hang on IrishDad, how can the issue be that folk get married and have children too early, when for years now the average age for doing either has gone up and up, just as the divorce rate has likewise?

I'm Irish and coming to think of it, divorce is very rare in our family. The only one I can think of is a great-aunt whose husband ran off with her sister. Ah, and one second cousin whose first wife was barmy apparently.

when the male of the couple is the one related to you, the wife is always cast as barmy. My cousin got divorced after 18 months about 25 years ago and the story in our side of the family was that she was mentally ill. Fgs, now, looking back on it, I can see it with a bit more objectivity! She must have been mentally ill to want to divorce my aunt and uncle's precious son.

I agree that a home can be 'broken' when the parents are still together and I'd rather a higher divorce rate than people being forced to tolerate horrendous situations.
The recession has certainly had an impact, but op, you seem determined to believe that there are large numbers of Irish people living in misery because of some cultural pressure and I don't think most people agree.

TheVeryThing: I'm not determined to believe that there are huge amounts of people trapped in misery. I don't believe it. I do think, however, that if someone is miserable it's harder to escape because as previous posters have said, it's not the done thing.

I would agree that there is still a large conservative undercurrent in Irish society. I have a friend in Ireland that remains in an unhappy marriage which I feel she would leave if she lived in the UK. Simply because she would have more support in making the move.

I lived with my granny in NI for a while. She was in her 80s at the time. It was a very conservative area. She surprised me by saying that divorce was one of the best things to happen to Ireland.

She'd seen many of her friends, neighbours.....and family, live in abusive marriages.

And yeah, she was one of those 'a day without going to mass is a bad day' kind of Catholics. (mind you, she was also a massive fan of contraception)

But do you really think that's because of stigma, or because it's just less common (for all the reasons that have been listed)?

I think there are plenty of factors at play. Yes, later marriages and negative equity contribute strongly, for sure. But I also think that shins is right in detecting a 'residual Catholic influence' over our generation. Plus - and not sure if this is related to the Catholic thing - I think that Irish society is run along more collectivist lines than English (don't know if this applies to Scotland or Wales - sorry).

Of course I don't think that a higher divorce rate is something to aspire to. But I don't believe that Ireland's relatively low divorce rate is reflective of general marital bliss.

To NoddingOff: love your description of culchies at college. But Jesus, did your mammy actually iron your underwear? Mine must have been pure useless so.

ChippyOik
"42% may seem high but it's more honest than a lower figure.
A figure of 10% suggests nothing more than financial dependence, inequality, social judging....."

Or it suggests a country where marriage isn't entered into after every whirlwind romance and marriage vows are taken seriously. Crazy concept, I know.

Compared to a country with a 42% divorce rate, Ireland isn't the one with the problem, believe me.

Irishdad I think there's an issue in society if a woman or man feels staying in an unhappy relationship (possibly abusive) is better than a divorce. When you think back not that long ago in Ireland the shit women had to put up with from their husbands. Abusive alcoholic fuck wits!
Women having a baby every year. Being forced to give up work, stay home and do everything while their 'd' h pissed their wages away in the local and then came home demanding food and sex!

I can remember my Mam (rip) saying she thought people gave up too easy on marriage "nowadays"
I told her no Mam women and men are just not prepared to put up with the shit your generation did.

I have a different point of view IrishDad, both from the figures and from having lived in both the UK and Ireland. I think a very low divorce rate probably does indicate a problem within a society, and I'm damn sure there is a problem in Ireland.

Also, if you think a low divorce rate shows that marriage vows are taken seriously here then you are being slightly naive. There is a lot of shagging around.

You seem determined to imply that the British are immoral or lacking in moral fibre because they both marry and divorce with more alacrity, whereas I think it's just a different attitude to unhappiness. In Britain when a person is unhappy they are more likely to seek to change their circumstances to improve their happiness. The Irish are more likely to view circumstances as something unchangeable and do what they can to find relief from unhappiness without changing anything. If anything the British approach is more honest, and possibly less likely to lead to alcoholism, adultery and being medicated for depression when not living in a miserable marriage would be a more effective cure.

That's is so lacking in empathy and intelligence IrishDad.

I agree with Movember. I've lived in the UK and in Ireland and people aren't better at relationships in Ireland, they don't have a forcefield around them to protect them from the loneliness and unhappiness that comes from a really bad relationship. Their relationship breaks down and they suffer that, legally married, and under the same roof.

That's what they call an Irish solution to an Irish problem, and you are one of those hypocrites who stands in judgement of the uk for having a higher divorce rate!?

IrishDad no response to my post pointing out the big logical hole in your original point then?

tendon queen, even if the average age for people getting married and having children in the UK is increasing, the fact is that the "culture" of divorce is so deeply ingrained in Britain now that even an increasing age profile alone is not going to reverse the trend. There are about two or three generations of people in Britain who have grown up seeing marriage as a disposable commodity, to be discarded as and when necessary.

It is my opinion that, in general, British people are more whimsical when it comes to children and marriage; have children on a whim, get married on a whim, get divorced on a whim. I've seen all these topics discussed on the relationship forum and it may as well be another planet to the world in which I and my friends grew up. I'm not naive, I work with a few people whose marriages have broken up, I know of a few people in my locality whose marriages have broken up, and one of my best friend's marriages broke up this year. Plus my wife is a primary teacher and she tells me there are always kids in every class whose parents have split up. So I know marriages break up in Ireland. But I don't think Ireland has the "culture" of marriage break-up as the UK and I would hate to see Ireland go down the same road as the UK where divorce is seen as "no biggie". Unfortunately however, I fear parts of urban Ireland are already on that path.

The topic title was asking if Ireland's relatively low divorce rate indicates that it's harder for Irish women to LTB. No, it more likely indicates that Irish women wait longer and are less likely to have children with and marry "the B" in the first place.

'Unfortunately however, I fear parts of urban Ireland are already on that path.

The big bad cities are going to hell in a handbasket.

It certainly wouldn't happen in Termonfeckin...........

IrishDad, do you actually know any British people? Ever lived in Britain? Your attitude seems as fair as if I thought Fathere Ted was a true, accurate and exhaustive view of all of Irish culture.