to ask about the general attitude to children with behavioural differences

[Francoitalialan]

Inspired by another thread, if you have ordinary non-special needs kids, especially of primary age, and there's a child at school displaying behaviour that's different to the norm, what conclusion do you reach?

Options may include

Not nice
Nasty
Product of crap parents
Rude
Spiteful
Dim
Annoying
Irritating
And also
Autistic spectrum disorder
Attention deficit disorder
Hyperactivity
Anxiety disorder
Dyspraxia
Sensory processing disorder
Auditory processing Disorder
Misphonia
Tourette's

Ad Infinitum.

Where do you generally place your opinion and why?

I've never heard of a child being expected to be a punchbag. Maybe a role model, a friend etc.
If a child is being hurt, then communication and support have gone badly wrong.

At one of the schools my dc went to, there was a social group, but the TA who led it had no idea and spent the time telling dc that certain behaviour was naughty and they'd be punished if they did xyz.
I've since learnt that social groups should be led by someone trained to do it, to help dc with SN to learn the intricacies of social behaviour, sometimes a very complicated thing to teach, and certainly not an appropriate time to threaten the confused child with punishments.

In reality the very inclusive 'Oh I don't know the situation so I won't judge in case SEN are involved and I encourage my dc to treat them the same' opinion, mainly only exists on mn.

I only know one child, a 7 year old boy in my ds1's class, with noticeable behavioural differences.

I know about 8 different parents from the class who have had meetings with the head because their child has been injured or upset by him (and this has been consistent since nursery). I know that he pushed a child down a steep bank in school on purpose, resulting in a nasty bump (I saw this myself). I know that his language is absolutely disgusting. Ds1 has told me other snippets - that he pretends he's going to stick scissors in you or that you have to hold on tight to your lunchbox or he will grab it and tip it on the floor and that if you say something he doesn't like he will scream at you, cry and tell the teacher you hit him.

I have no idea if SEN is involved. I only 'know' what I've seen and ds1 tells me. And regardless of any possible underlying reasons, I only know that it is enough for me to tell ds1 to stay away from him completely.

I suppose the point is - I don't think i'm judging him or labelling the boy as anything. But my concern is ds1's safety and my reactions will be based on what the boy does, not why he does it. Which in reality, I think is the way most parents, whose prime concern is to protect their own dc, will feel.

I've never heard of a child being expected to be a punchbag. Maybe a role model, a friend etc. If a child is being hurt, then communication and support have gone badly wrong.

But that's what I'm saying. You can't tell a kid to be nice without explaining what being nice entails. The dyslexic DD clearly didn't know how to set good boundaries and she wasn't getting help from the adults in that situation. She was told to be friends with this girl, and coming home frustrated and upset about it. That's not a good way to do that sort of group.

The social groups are not for "SN kids" ( horrible phrase) to use other kids as "punching bags."

Exactly. So why wasn't the OP's DD getting the proper support so that didn't happen to her?

That poor boy, summernights :(

Threads like this make me glad my child went to an sn school

School should be supporting him better

School should be supporting him better

this was my issue in my situation.

The school were not supporting the boy or my dd.

It's not helpful for anyone.

Summernights, my ds behaves like that boy, but at home.
We're desperately trying to get some support in school to 1) try to minimise anxiety which leads to this behaviour and 2) try to prevent this ever happening at school.
School aren't interested.
We're lucky that so far ds hasn't punched anyone in school, but to us, he's a ticking time bomb that needs preventative measures.
School aren't interested.
Actually, there are plenty of stories about dc who are violent in school, a danger to themselves and others. There are plenty of teachers and SENCOs who actively resist learning strategies that could prevent such outbursts. I have no idea why, they could make so many people's lives easier, including their own. Baffling.

phil, I don't deny that some teachers just think 'I know best', but I haven't met many of them. Where I work the vast majority are excellent at implementing strategies for students with SEN. However, we don't have very many - an average of 1 per class that I teach. So it's easy to spend the extra time. However, my previous school had an average of 3 students with SEN per class. I quit because I didn't have the time to meet their needs properly, many other teachers there were trying their best, but the system isn't set up properly.

It is similar with behaviour problems. My school has just a few kids in each year who have behavioural problems, so we have the time to work with parents and outside agencies to find root causes and workable strategies. My sister quit one school shortly after her DS was born because she didn't have the time to do her job properly any more.

I personally don't think teachers need more money, but in some schools (admittedly not mine) they do need more time to ensure all students' needs are met.

I'm pretty sure my eldest child has mild ADHD. We haven't had it officially diagnosed. I think initially people may have thought naughty child/bad parents. My youngest child however doesn't have ADHD and is very well behaved. This seems to have lifted people's bad parenting judgement. As my child with ADHD matures (and is learning to conform a bit more) I think people's views are changing to seeing her as quirky. I can see children who didn't seem to particularly like her very much (she can be very persistent and annoying) start to see more of her amazing energy and enthusiasm. Her imagination and the ideas she has can leave me speechless. One of the less known positive sides of adhd!
However, on the other side of the fence, there is a child with ASD in my youngest child's reception class. I try not to judge but he is quite violent. I'm fairly relieved that she is not particularly friendly with him and has therefore not yet been injured by him, but then I feel a bit guilty as I know it feels to be the parent of that different child. The one that doesn't get the party invitations.
It is complex.

My DS was in mainstream primary with TA support. Obviously his teachers and TAs knew. I never used cards, instead I told other people if I thoiught they would need to know – people running the out-of-school activities he attended, parents of his schoolfriends. We also used some ASC-specialist services like a social skillls group and a summer playscheme with trained helpers. After DS was diagnosed and with my agreement his class teacher spoke to the class about Asperger's and how to interact with DS one day when he was not there. I don’t know exactly what she told them but I trust her and am I sure it helped.

I didn’t go into details about DS with parents of children who DS had upset or hurt; I apologised and made it clear that we took it seriously (and if it was a serious incident I would add that there would be consequences for DS, though I wouldn’t say what they were) I might offer to do what I could to stop it happening again, e.g. I ended up sitting in on one out-of-school class so another child would feel safe. If it was a school incident I also said the school were aware of DS’s issues and should be supporting him and the other kids.

And most of the time it is not at all obvious that my DS has SN. People are often shocked when something happens seemingly "out of the blue" and it can be hard even for people who know DS well to judge when he is being rude or just mis-communicating.

SummerNights1986

Sounds so similar to a boy in my childs class we could even be talking about the same boy.

The situation with my sons class is identicle to the one SummerNights1986 mentioned, he's incredible aggressive. His mother says he has ASD but that he hasn't been statemented (?! Im not too sure on what this means).

I think the difficulty with our situation is the mothers attitude (father not involved) shes very 'boys will be boys' and 'leave him alone you know hes different' (her words). She will quite happily watch her son unprovoked punch another child across the face and remain completely unresponsive to what has happened. Again, many parents have discussed solutions with the teachers.

Its very difficult to like the child, especially after being called into the school when your sons been very seriously assaulted by him and the mother just stands there giving you the 'dare you to say something to me' stare. Im always polite to him when he talks to me, my issue is with his mother.

Well maybe you should learn about why he might be punching people if he has ASD and then you at least might understand a bit better and not "dislike' him.

A child with ASD in my DD''s class punched her in face. It was because DD was crying and it was distressing to the child.

Didn't make me dislike them or give attitude to the parents.

Crazybaglady That means a “statement of special needs” which lays out what support he is legally entitled to in school. He may be in the process of getting a statement (it can take a very long time) or he may have been refused. It’s one of the main paths to extra TA time etc. which may be necessary to keep him safely in school.

Out of school the issue is with his mother. In school the issue is not with his mother, it’s with the school.

Yes. The school are responsible for his behaviour.

His mum is probably defensive as your blaming attitude shines out very clearly.

www.autism.org.uk/challengingbehaviour

Bad parenting isn't on there

I would acknowledge the bad/ challenging behaviour and think there could be a sn, would not blame the parents.
My children have been affected by all sorts of behaviour in their time, from having knives pulled on them, beaten up at school, bitten and a scar still there now 7 years later
I have always told my children not to be friends with violent children and in the case of the older ones completely out of control we pressed charges.
some children can be managed in school, others shouldn't be allowed in mainstream schools. I say this as a parent of a now grown up with Aspergers.

FanjofortheMammaries Im just honestly answering the OP's question. What was the point in answering when someone like you is ready to jump down someones throat, because they dont agree with you.

Clearly, there were going to be answers that you were not going to like.

It's a great idea that children with emotional and behavioural difficulties are supported in mainstream, but what that can mean is that other children are expected to learn in a noisy, unsafe environment with behaviour going on which none of us would accept in the workplace without calling the police and suing our employer.

That it is why it is important that children are given the support they need to help them cope as well as possible.

Crazybaglady, if you are being called into school about your child being hurt, the other parent should not be present in any discussion about it. That is really poor handling by the school.

Missymayhemsmum, when my son was in mainstream school, one of the main causes of his challenging behaviour was the noise of children without sn.

Bad parenting doesn't cause autism.

However, bad parenting can exacerbate pre existing problems and issues - simple as that really.

Many children with autism do not respond to the usual parenting techniques and it can take a lot of time and trial and error to find something that works even some of the time.