to ask about the general attitude to children with behavioural differences

[Francoitalialan]

Inspired by another thread, if you have ordinary non-special needs kids, especially of primary age, and there's a child at school displaying behaviour that's different to the norm, what conclusion do you reach?

Options may include

Not nice
Nasty
Product of crap parents
Rude
Spiteful
Dim
Annoying
Irritating
And also
Autistic spectrum disorder
Attention deficit disorder
Hyperactivity
Anxiety disorder
Dyspraxia
Sensory processing disorder
Auditory processing Disorder
Misphonia
Tourette's

Ad Infinitum.

Where do you generally place your opinion and why?

It took us over 4 years to get a diagnosis for ds, plenty of people take much longer, in fact the NAS is running a campaign now to combat the ridiculously long waiting times it takes to get a diagnosis, which means that so many dc and families are being let down, because as much as schools and support agencies are supposed to be needs led not diagnosis led, they're not, until you have that piece of paper, you are considered to be the crap parent of a naughty child.

Well, I wasn't really referring to merely irritating behaviours, but still the point stands - living with special needs is stressful even though somebody can be feeling happy and calm in the moment. Like if a child lives with abusive parents but isn't abused at school, they will still display abnormal behaviours at school because of the general effects on their life as a whole.

Needing to touch things is an aspect of the SN.

Oh I know Phil. That's why I was worried I wasn't explaining myself properly! I meant more that parents and, in some cases, teachers, are quick to assume/suggest SN when they see behaviour that's a bit 'different' even if it isn't actually the case. I suppose maybe in teacher's cases they're worried about missing something? It can be, as others have suggested, something like a child being a bit shy/socially awkward/anxious or, as it was in our case, bullying, that makes their behaviour a bit 'off'. Once those issues are addressed the behaviour improves. I think school can be very stressful for some children.

Having a child with Sn and being judged by everyone is not nice, i know i always feel on the defensive. we currently have been told he has autistic traits and spd.

Today my son threw a bunch of keys at my face extremley hard.
He told his after school worker to fuck off and he was never going back
threatens suscide on a regular basis and will try to kill himself
extremley violent at home but not at school
swears like a trouper
Long horrendous meltdowns that can last hours
we have to watch like a hawk as he has no danger awarenessand the list is endless.

Life is awful at times and i always feel like people are judging me.

Some children just get labbled as naughty and problems dont get picked up for years.

Ok, yes I get your point.
It must come down to individual schools though I think, all of the schools I have experience of (three primaries, two secondaries) will deny any level of needs unless the parents point it out and fight for it.
I'm not sure I can count ds2 in this, as he is exceptionally good at masking.
Ds1 though has had problems for years, to the point where at one point he was 4 years behind his age range for reading, had no friends and was bullied, but it was still put down to him being a typical lazy boy. We found out last week that it's likely he has ASD, OCD and anxiety. No-one wants to support him.
Another child at school showed symptoms of ADHD constantly jumping up, couldn't sit still or concentrate, grabbed other pupils, constantly disrupted lessons, yet was punished every day as he was so naughty - no support or understanding at all.
Another boy, possibly with attachment disorder following abuse and neglect as a child, struggled to make friends, yet again, was treated as a naughty child, no understanding whatsoever, despite his background.
IME schools will deny, dismiss and minimise as long as they possibly can.

I don't have a child with SN, but I do have several close friends who do (ranging from mild to severe) and I hope that I have a lot of empathy for both the child and the parents in that position.

But I don't agree that a NT child to be forced to socialise with any child (SN or otherwise) like on the thread you mention. It's not fair to put any child in the position of having to play with someone whether they like it or not. They absolutely should be encouraged to be kind and inclusive, but not to the extent of being told who to play with in their time outside the classroom.

That's awful Phil :( I think part of our thing was the school trying to cover their ass for not dealing with the bullying and allowing it to get out of hand. They were trying to suggest that his behaviour was caused by something else instead.

Sevenseconds where does "encouragement to be kind and inclusive" end and "force" start?
My son finds it almost impossible to approach children to play with. He doesn't get it and can't do it. Without a buddy system where other children are asked to include him on a rota basis, he would be playing alone every single play time.

But so long as a socially able child isn't "forced" to do something, that's ok right?

My son finds it difficult to sit still and attend to his lessons. But he still has to do it because it's an expectation of school, and I fail to see the difference between that, and ensuring other children play with him. We all have to do things we might not fancy doing. Leaving someone out because of their disability (and that's what it amounts to) is never justifiable. You're not as empathetic as you think, I reckon.

In my sons school the TA or teacher help him to develop social skills, so will ask him "who do you want to play with?" And then help him to ask them to play, or ask if he can join in.

The TA also does 1-1 work with him helping him to learn how to play some of the games they have in the classroom so he can then play them with his peers.

OP, I guess I mean something like Sirzy suggests. So giving the child adult support to improve his social skills rather than making it the responsibility of another child.

When I worked with children, I tried to actively encourage 9 year old girls to include another girl in their play. It backfired and made them dislike her even more. She was a sweet child, but had very poor social skills and understanding of what is appropriate behaviour, so did irritate other children.
What she needed was support to improve her social skills, and organised games that she could join in.

if you have ordinary non-special needs kids, especially of primary age, and there's a child at school displaying behaviour that's different to the norm, what conclusion do you reach?

Don't have energy to think or care, too busy looking after my own kids.

DS1 is ordinary but difficult. Certified & verified that he doesn't have SN. Had terrible behaviour problems. Called hyperactive (did not offend me, sorta fit) & a teacher once strongly implied that he was simply an ill-disciplined brat. We were shunned by some other parents (& their kids) for several yrs. Some teachers were kind.

DS2 is increasingly friends with a boy whose mum obviously loathed me for yrs (due to DS1 behaviour). We live in a small town & I hope we can all move on now.

*I've found that people expect children with SN to look different. When they "look normal" (not my words), others find it difficult to understand that they have SN.

I also find that when you have a violent child, like I do, you are doubly judged because it's seen as the child choosing to behave like that, and the parents allowing it to happen, when in reality, the child is overwhelmed and out of control and there is no choice involved at all.*

OMG Phil every one of your posts rings true with me too (me doubly blamed for my SN childs aspergers behaviour cos Im a single parent).

Im sick and tired of being judged because my child cant help it, (and looks ''normal''), and I don't know if any other parents of sn children can tell the difference between a sn child and a badly dragged up child (not the childs fault).cuase I can tell the difference.

Fran, I feel really strongly about this. I read that thread and felt uncomfortable too.

There are a few children who have special needs in my daughter's class and one boy who is in care and struggles with his behaviour. I've made an effort to learn their names and always say a warm hello in the playground. I ask my daughter how they are. I have explained to her that learning and making friends isn't as easy for some people as it is for her, and it's important to be a good friend to the whole class. She gets on with them all and is developing a sweet little friendship with one of the boys.
I think quite a few parents in our primary take this approach as they all get invited to the parties etc, but maybe this is more likely in the first couple of years before the cliques have formed?

Ds has unusual and sometimes challenging behaviour. I think it is obvious that he is disabled. Most people seem to accept him but we get a few pulled faces and tuts. I think this will increase as he gets older because adults with learning disabilities are less accepted than children are.

Dietcherrycola your post has made me cry. I wish you were a mum at my boy's school, and that more parents would take this view. You're lovely.

DS1 has a diagnosis of ASD and ADD. He was diagnosed late, well into secondary school. Afterwards he had a teacher who refused to believe that he had SEN. She said to my face that he was manipulative and trying to get attention/out of doing his work. The thing is he hates attention and did all he could to stay under the radar at school. He ended up with a U in her subject having totally disengaged. Even in his other subjects he suffered due to lack of good support and started avoiding school as much as he could. I was judged from him being small due to his behaviour and probably later on his lateness and avoidance of school. People said he was naughty, spoilt, poor example, single parent family (I only met DH when DS1 was 5) etc etc. Now he is at college he is doing better, having chosen a subject he likes, but education became so negative for him it is taking time to shake off his old ways. He is very easily discouraged and frustrated by what to anyone else is a minor setback. I think people judge because they don't get what a monumental challenge children with SN and their families face. They really think a good clip round the ear or a sticker chart will work (DS announced to his nursery teacher that he didn't care if she refused to give him a sticker as it was just paper and mummy had a big pack of paper near the printer!)

okay, just read all posts (phils were enough to make me post quick!).

Mine has, today- thrown a chair at me, hit me with the broom handle, threw all her lego down the stairs, (all kicked off cos I said it was lunchtime!).

NDN came round as she heard the screaming from DC (and Ive already tried to explain DCs sn to NDN but complete woosh over the head) and NDN threatened to call the police as she thought I was abusing my DC, not the fact that DC (not DCs fault) was attacking ME.

I once again tried to explain but she wasn't convinced. Ive apologised a million times for the screaming, DC had sensory meltdowns like a light switch, jeckyl and hide she is, and asked NDN Id be quite happy for her to call the council to rehouse us in a sheltered place away from judgy people!

parents, I feel for you so much, I know what its like, the CONSTANT judging and comments- yet no one ever offers help do they? .

and I now home school DC as she was ''expelled'' for ''assaulting'' a teacher. in a sn school that was.

Oh Fran, that's kind of you to say. I really do think if school and parents are mindful of this it can make school a much happier place. You sound lovely too!

Can I just say to all the wonderful parents out there that love and support your children that have SN, I think you are all wonderful.

I sometimes despair when I read stories from the adults that have had horrible childhoods, with shity parents, so it's nice to read about the good parents. My niece is 20, has severe SN and she and her brothers live with me, but I am extremely lucky because she doesn't gave behavioural difficulties. It's still a huge commitment looking after her, so I honestly don't know how some of you cope. It's not simply because you're a parent and you love them, it's an amazing show of strength and dedication.

I really hope I didn't come over as patronising there.