To think the WEP should not be campaigning for men to be allowed to stay overnight on postnatal wards?

[CallaLilli]

I was just having a look at some of the objectives for the WEP and noticed they have a Stand Up for Dads campaign. Now whilst I agree with a lot of what they say on that page, one of the things they say is:

“hospitals don’t seem to take dads seriously. Many treat new fathers and new co-parents as visitors who have to stick to visiting hours or at best sleep in a chair. All new mums should be allowed a partner with them 24-7 if they choose.”

Countless women on MN have spoken of their experiences on postnatal wards and the majority of them have said that they would not want men staying on the ward 24/7, at a time when they feel at their most vulnerable. Am I BU to think that a party set up for women should be more considerate of what women want?

Missbattleaxe. Are you saying it should NEVER be allowed? Or that exceptional circumstances should be taken into consideration?

I'm saying it should only be allowed in private rooms.

I do not think it is ever acceptable for a partner to stay overnight on a shared ward. A post natal ward should be a sanctuary for vulnerable recovering mothers, not like a youth hostel dorm. Women need to be able to trust that they will have privacy, not be told they "may" have privacy, or will "probably" have privacy.

I think there are circumstances where there's a clinical need for partners to stay, such as severe MH issues. These are the deserving cases who should get the private rooms, without having to pay extra since it's a part of their care. Yes that's what I think FannyChampionofTheWorld.

Ohbehave, I assume you've now read what devora said about how impossible it would be to organise the wards in the way you advocate. Do you know see that in fact it wouldn't be 'simples' after all?

Ohbehave, I don't think anyone is saying "no at all costs" but the primary objective is the care and safety and privacy of the patients ie the mothers. If we could wave our wands and make 100% private rooms, that would be a solution all would welcome but it's impossible (they also do not like serious risk cases in private rooms as they will necessarily be eyeballed less often by HCPs than on the ward!)

I would be very surprised if midwives turning out 4-6 men 1-2 times a week in the middle of the night to accommodate a new mother wouldn't meet with resistance or possibly aggression.

There's also a more minor but very real issue of hospital parking, often limited; if several cars stay for blocks of several days, someone coming for an urgent outpatient appointment may find it harder to park. Along with loo and food facilities as have been mentioned.

I'm a bit torn on this. EMCS after long labour, sepsis requiring 1 night in HDU, 8 night stay due to sepsis and PPH. My first night on the ward I sent my husband home, conscious of not upsetting patients or staff. I was unable to get into bed and therefore was left sitting in a reclining chair. My baby cried for 10 mins and nobody would help so I somehow managed to get reach her and sat awake for the rest of the night holding her. I bled all over the floor and my husband cleaned it up when he arrived in the morning. The following nights he stayed with me. Once I was able to stand up and manage I stayed alone.

I am a doctor, and I've worked in medical wards for years. There is no way we would tolerate such substandard care on any other ward. Yes we should be improving post natal care, but in the meantime what do we do?

Fanny. Who isn't reading what I said properly now. I did say I was being facetious with my simples.

What I think is totally wrong is the way people are so angry about something that if done right could be a positive.

But in a civilised society we should be able to achieve something that works for both sides. But it seems that some people are so anti partners that they are not willing to look at something that could work for both sides.

One more. At last. Someone that is willing to talk sensibly.

Yes - I agree that there are many hurdles to overcome, but as someone that has seen the necessity for a partner to be present I don't think it is something that should be dismissed without thought and considered discussion.

Looking at it in a money and services no object situation, where perhaps private rooms or enough ward or bed space for those that don't mind and those that do to be accommodated can anyone deny that for a partner to be there and supporting the new mother and child would not be beneficial?

I doubt anyone is denying that, ohbehave - albeit some mothers will be lumbered with abusive idiots who hinder rather than help.

The costs to make it workable are probably far higher than the costs to increase HCP staffing levels though.

But in a civilised society we should be able to achieve something that works for both sides. But it seems that some people are so anti partners that they are not willing to look at something that could work for both sides

This is a civilized society but until there are private rooms, it is simply not fair for one woman who wants her partner overnight to inflict him on three women who don't know him.

Nobody is anti partners. Many people, myself included, are, quite rightly in my opinion, anti having-non-patients-staying-on-the-ward-when-women-need-more privacy-and quiet-than-they-will-ever-need-ever-again-in-their-lives.

Pivate rooms- do what you like. Public shared ward- nope. Women deserve to have this space ring-fenced. It should be a basic human right not to have a stranger sleeping three foot away from you when you've just had a baby.

I cannot name one developed country who would allow up to eight people overnight on a communal recovery ward, four of whom are not even patients. Men wouldn't tolerate it on all-male wards. Why the hell should post partum mothers?

You haven't really answered the question properly ohbehave. Facetious or not, given what devora has said, do you still think your suggestion would be workable or not? And I don't really see what you mean about objecting to people being angry about something that could be positive if done right, either. Most of us feel it would be viable if we could guarantee private rooms for everyone, and that would be a good thing in itself. And that's also the only way it could ever be anything remotely positive. We also know that's not going to happen, though, and most of us feel the already stretched NHS should have more important priorities. If we can't guarantee private rooms for everyone, it would be utterly negative. Nothing you've said so far suggests you get that, though.

Rincenoir don't you think having partners there 24/7 would worsen postnatal care? You seem to be presenting it as a plausible stopgap in the event that postnatal care was indeed to be improved. Whereas a lot of us think that in the meantime, we could start by not doing anything to make it even worse.

Fanny- I really don't think it should be a stopgap, but there are women in this situation as we debate it. Postnatal care isn't going to improve for them tonight.

The problem is that if partners are present and do the job of say, an auxilliary nurse, then maternity units will remain understaffed and partners will be leaned on to do jobs that staff should do. And what about single mothers who have nobody? or people who's partners are looking after older children?

With proper staffing levels i.e enough midwife care so that midwives are not spread too thinly to help, then there is no "need" for partners to stay overnight, only a "want", which is not the same as a need.

Fanny. I have never said it would be easy (other than my simples comment).

However, I do believe that there should not be wards, just individual rooms. Enough to allow peace if you need it and for others babies not to wake yours.

And in the case of having a child go straight to NICU (one of my twins did, and his singleton little brother did exactly a year later ) the parent doesn't have to sit around looking at others with their "perfect" new children. And in that situation can have their partner there giving support because no matter how good the nursing staff are in that situation it's not the same as your partner.

Maternity is not like any other ward. And as such the standard ward system isn't right.

What are people's experiences of postnatal care overnight?

Mine are (for the 2 births I had overnight stays) that the ward is darkened and quiet, except when a baby cries, and 2 midwives sat at the nurse's station outside the ward.

With DS2, he was very restless, wouldn't feed or settle, so at about 2am I walked him out of the ward, and was chatting to the midwives there. One of them made me a cup of tea.

With DS1, I was a bit more harassed, because I was exhausted and he wouldn't stop crying. The midwives were there, just sitting around, but just offered a few words of encouragement.

My experience is that in the day they are rushed off their feet - at night, they are just "there" - so would be able to go in and lift a baby to the mother, take her to the loo etc. The daytimes were the time when mothers needed assistance. That's only going by about 5 nights on the ward though - with 3 different dc / 2 different hospitals.

Things may have got worse though - this was 7+ years ago.

3.5 yrs ago the postnatal ward where I was, was very similar. After visitors had gone home, there would be a midwife and a maternity healthcare assistant sat at the front desk. Lights down low, and women attempting to sleep. Not many women called for assistance at night, and the staff there would have usually been able to go straight to them I'd imagine. Daytimes were a busy rush, and the impression I got was that they were too busy to spend much time with you if you needed a bit of extra help. Partners could visit from 10 till 10pm, which seemed more than enough to me.

I was induced (so was in hospital) when I went into labour with DC2 in the middle of the night. I texted DH to come down, but it was a very busy night, and there was no delivery suite for me to go into. As such, my waters broke and I laboured alone in the ward, while DH waited out in the corridor.

There were still no delivery suites free by the time I need to push. I was wheeled down to a random room and went past the door to the corridor where DH was looking in. He was eventually let in, with seconds to spare before DC2 arrived.

I still think YANBU - as much as I might have wanted my DH with me, I still wouldn't want wards inundated with other people's partners at night time, and can fully respect that other women wouldn't want my husband there, either.

When our first child was stillborn we were put in a private delivery room, which also had a bathroom, small kitchen area, and a sofa bed.

We could have stayed in that room together overnight, but I was physically well enough to leave and we just wanted to go home.

When our second child was born prematurely we were put in that same private delivery room again, because they knew that she would die either during or shortly after labour, and this time we did stay overnight because I was also very ill. She died two hours after her birth while we held her.

However for the four nights previous to her birth, I was in a private room on a normal ward and DH did not and could not stay.

Even on the night they told him I was so ill from the infection to my placenta that they needed to deliver the baby the next morning or I would die along with her, he didn't get to stay. Not until we were moved to the private room especially designed for partners or supportive family members to stay alongside the patient. They let him stay longer than the normal visiting hours, but he went home or to my parents house nearby rather than stay overnight.

We stayed in that room for two nights, and then it was either back to the private room on the ward or home. I chose to go home against their advice because I just wanted to be home, not because DH could or could not stay.

So they can and do make exceptions when circumstances are so extreme as to need them, but only when they can really accommodate partners without causing problems for the other patients in the hospital.

And even considering everything we've been through, even on the night they told DH he had to prepare himself for losing me as well as our daughter, they had to consider those other patients needs as much as they had to consider ours, and I still think that's the right thing for them to do. The times DH was allowed to stay only worked (for everybody, not just us) because we were isolated in a special room reserved for the most tragic circumstances, well away from the main wards.

They can't provide rooms like that for every patient. There just aren't the funds or the space or the resources or the staff. Our hospital has just the one room like that in the women's hospital, and if another family experiencing a similar loss had needed it after our daughter was born I would have been moved and DH sent home. As is only right.

I've already shared my story of how awful one man was on the four bed ward when we went on to have DS, and how I couldn't walk and felt trapped and frightened.

Everything was a struggle and help from DH would have been nice, but I still think properly staffed wards would be better than wards filled with non-patients 'helping' to various degrees. They can and do make exceptions when circumstances really demand it, but also they need the right facilities to make those exceptions, and a single room at the end of a corridor or a curtain around a bed just aren't enough sometimes to allow them to do so.

To me, the safety of all patients has to come first. They really can't guarantee that with non-patients spending the night. There've been so many examples on here of women in labour or with newborns being intimidated and frightened by partners of other women to make this a justifiable risk in my eyes.

Hygge

hygge

True rince but my fear is that allowing partners there 24/7 wouldn't help, it would make things worse. You seem to be starting from the point that them being there would be beneficial in some way?

Ohbehave this time round I asked if you if thought it would be viable, not easy, and not how you feel about this on principle. We've already established that you don't think it would be really simple. But I would like to know what you envisage happening when the no men wards are full, and a woman needing postnatal care who doesn't want to be on a dads allowed ward arrives? Nobody who wants this has yet told us how it would work.

As an aside, I'm sorry to hear of your experiences, but speaking as someone who also had a child on NICU I still don't feel those of us in that boat have the right to force the presence of our partners onto other vulnerable women. Your feelings don't override the need for other women to feel safe. Maternity is identical to other wards in that there are ill people recovering. They don't stop having the same rights as other sick people because some of their fellow patients want their partners there.

hygge

I'm afraid I don't think it should happen routinely in single rooms either. Those who've seen it work in single rooms have seen it work with exceptions to the rule. I know of a ward with 40 single rooms in a hospital near to me. 40 or even 30 partners staying over in that ward would = absolute bloody chaos in all the communal areas. I'm imagining 30 partners queuing up at the front desk to ask about the parking permit system/when can their DP be discharged/there's something wrong with the baby/when will lunch be served/can they use the ward phone/has the GP been told about the complications. I'm imagining the day room stuffed with people, standing room only. Are all the single rooms ensuite? Because they woudl have to be. Along with these 30 partners will be lots of visitors don't forget.

I may say that that ward with 40 single rooms is a nightmare and I would go a long way to prevent a relative of mine being admitted there. Because single rooms require more staff, not less. The reason the old 28 bed Florence Nightingale wards used to 'work' was that a single nurse could eyeball every patient every few seconds if necessary. In those wards you could have one nurse and half an orderly, if you were prepared to half kill the nurses, but it was roughly safe, provided the nurses were prepared to impose a rigid routine and serious battleaxe regime on patient demands.

I would like to see the WEP demanding more staff on wards, the postnatal wards if they like but not just the postnatal wards, to prove that women's rights are people's rights. I wonder how many people or organisations they actually talked to before writing that policy and in fact am going to email them. I will certainly never vote for that.

Oh hygge

Annandale. If the vocal group on here are anything to go by it would only be 1 or 2 rooms. But I still believe that single rooms are the only way forward. To allow those that want the start of a new life to be shared to do so. Yes, it is more staff intensive but I can't see how it can be anything but beneficial for those that want it to

Fanny. I have never said it should be forced upon anyone. Just that the option should be available for those that wish to use it. I am not saying that my situation was more important than a woman who didn't want partners anywhere near her. Just that both people are equally worthy of getting what they need rather than what suits the "majority"

Sorry Fanny. Should have added - I did say earlier that in the event of no beds being available for those who don't want partners near the wishes of those who don't want them have to take priority.