To think the WEP should not be campaigning for men to be allowed to stay overnight on postnatal wards?

[CallaLilli]

I was just having a look at some of the objectives for the WEP and noticed they have a Stand Up for Dads campaign. Now whilst I agree with a lot of what they say on that page, one of the things they say is:

“hospitals don’t seem to take dads seriously. Many treat new fathers and new co-parents as visitors who have to stick to visiting hours or at best sleep in a chair. All new mums should be allowed a partner with them 24-7 if they choose.”

Countless women on MN have spoken of their experiences on postnatal wards and the majority of them have said that they would not want men staying on the ward 24/7, at a time when they feel at their most vulnerable. Am I BU to think that a party set up for women should be more considerate of what women want?

Fanny ideologically I am in complete agreement! Just in real life I have a lot of sympathy for people in the situation at the moment. In my case my husband was very useful- he helped me get in to bed, he could bring the baby to me, he brought me food (as I wasn't able to walk to the kitchen for the first few days) and he could do everything but feed the baby. Otherwise I would have had no sleep, no food and a starving baby. I had a side room anyway so it wasn't really an issue. Of course family should not be needed for such things but basic post natal care is seriously lacking. It's not just staffing levels in my opinion, it's also the attitude that it's "just" childbirth and we should be able to cope. After minor surgery we give people large amounts of opiate painkillers, yet post c-section we expect people to cope with over the counter medications, be fully mobile and look after a newborn.

Thing is ohbehave, the 'choice' only works when you have enough beds. Which you sometimes don't. I'm glad you've acknowledged that in this situation, the woman who doesn't want to share with men should be able to have the partners all turfed out. But do you think this is going to happen calmly and peacefully, or do you think already overworked midwives might end up with a mutiny on their hands with half a dozen blokes, not all of whom will necessarily be nice, being thrown out at 4am? If the eviction is successful, do you think the woman who's asked for them to be turfed out will feel safe when they all turn up again at 9am?

I agree with most of what you say rinceoir and have sympathy for people who desperately needed help they didn't get too. It's just that if your no doubt lovely and helpful DH had been on a ward not a private room, he might've easily been as detrimental to other women as he was helpful to you.

Fanny. Glad we are talking rather than our original "discussion".

Do you really think it is that bad that partners want to do the basics like feeding and changing the new arrival. Is that really the job of a healthcare professional anyway?

Do you really think it is that bad that partners want to do the basics like feeding and changing the new arrival. Is that really the job of a healthcare professional anyway?

They don't have to be there overnight to do that. They already have extended visiting times and can be there all day. They do not need to be snoring away in a chair next to the bed.

Under. If there were enough private rooms what is your problem with the partner staying? Is there any situation where you would find it acceptable for a partner to stay overnight.

"If the eviction is successful, do you think the woman who's asked for them to be turfed out will feel safe when they all turn up again at 9am?"

I imagine they wouldn't feel too comfortable through the night either, if the women who's partners had been told to leave were unhappy about it as well. Some are likely to be quite vocal about it to the woman who wanted them to leave.

And some women may say nothing and just suffer in silence for fear of getting the blame.

Just that both people are equally worthy of getting what they need rather than what suits the "majority"

aka "Give me my own way even if I am outvoted"

The majority don't want the thing you want.

Do you really think it is that bad that partners want to do the basics like feeding and changing the new arrival. Is that really the job of a healthcare professional anyway? FGS it's not forever!

The point is, hygge, what makes the person who doesn't want partners present wishes more important than those that does? I am not saying that either is more important than the other, just that they both are as important as each other.

ohbehave, are you just out of a fight or something?

I can't work out what you're arguing at all - I have never said I have a problem with the partner staying in a private room - I'm talking about shared wards (as we all are, I think).

Shared wards, bays of 6, already cramped, where a partner staying overnight will be to the detriment of (up to) 5 other women's comfort, privacy and dignity.

Missbattleaxe. Is there any instance you would say that a partner should be able to stay. In an ideal world? And no, it's not forever. But it doesn't negate the fact that for some it may be what they need.

nope, I'm not talking about shared wards - I don't think it should happen in private rooms either except in clinically exceptional circumstances.

I really don't think it should be weird to say that wards are for patients.

what makes the person who doesn't want partners present wishes more important than those that does?

We've been through this, ohbehave. Because it impinges on the rights of other patients - it makes a 6-bed ward house up to 12 people + newborn babies, and it means women have to sleep with strange men inches from them and their babies.

It has been established that mixed wards are not a good thing for patient privacy and dignity, they are/have been phased out. This should include postnatal wards.

Sadly I don't have three days to read all of the previous posts, but at my hospital partners were allowed to stay. We all had curtains round our beds and it was an amazing experience compared to having my first and being left alone in a room with a newborn feeling so overwhelmed and tired.

And my partner and the lady opposite's partner were a million times more considerate than the woman opposite who had just had her sixth baby who spent the entire time from five am (I gave birth at 10pm the night before so had had about 4 hours of sleep at that point) standing at the window next to my curtain on the phone to all and sundry telling them about her awful birth and then climbing in to bed and snoring so loudly the bed was vibrating. I videoed it to play to my mum it was so ridiculous. I didn't feel uncomfortable for one second with partners on the ward.

Ffs missbattleaxe. It's about the majority is it. Even if the best thing for someone is that their partner is there. If you bother to read what I have said then you will see that I have said that sometimes the needs of the majority have to " trump" the needs of the individual. But I also believe that if it is needed then it should be available.

Clinical needs always outweigh simple wants. But if the clinical needs of the new mother are that the partner is there then how do you deal with that.

I can see you are going to be anti no matter what. Is there any point in discussing it with you?

Looks like you should have addressed your post at 21:19 to annandale, ohbehave

Personally I don't have a problem with fathers staying in private single rooms, should the mother want them to - but I can see that annandale makes very good points.

Don't bother with your good example MarleneGru. The MN Stasi will tell you that you are wrong regardless.

Ok under. So we have some common ground. for my earlier arseyness

I just can't agree with those that say never. Each case is individual. And in some cases it will be in the best interest of the new mum concerned without having a detrimental effect on others. But Annandale will never agree that it can be like that.

Is it worth repeating that the two positions are incompatible, and agreement therefore impossible? Women who are comfortable with 24/7 partners on a ward and therefore want their partners present are not going to agree with women for whom this is an appalling situation. The only actual solution is private ensuite rooms. That pretty much isn't going to happen in every hospital. Hospitals seem to be keen on having partners 24/7 because presumably they hope it will reduce the basic care they have to provide. So what will happen is that women will either discharge themselves early to avoid the situation, or if unable to, they will be forced to be endure an awful experience at an incredibly vulnerable time. The whole thing is a pile of shit, and I'm already hating the fact that I'm going to have to deal with this in 7 months time.

Of course she's not 'wrong', it's her experience and that can't be wrong.

Mystified by videoing another patient asleep tbh - how did you come to think that was OK? I suppose I would probably have had a rant on MN about her if I'd had a smartphone at the time of ds's birth so it's not much different.

I just don't agree that partners sleeping on wards should be happening and I can't imagine circumstances in which I would.

Culture. It's horrible you are already feeling apprehensive about what should be a wonderful time.

I don't think the opinions are mutually exclusive. As long as the facilities are there to accommodate both.