To think the WEP should not be campaigning for men to be allowed to stay overnight on postnatal wards?

[CallaLilli]

I was just having a look at some of the objectives for the WEP and noticed they have a Stand Up for Dads campaign. Now whilst I agree with a lot of what they say on that page, one of the things they say is:

“hospitals don’t seem to take dads seriously. Many treat new fathers and new co-parents as visitors who have to stick to visiting hours or at best sleep in a chair. All new mums should be allowed a partner with them 24-7 if they choose.”

Countless women on MN have spoken of their experiences on postnatal wards and the majority of them have said that they would not want men staying on the ward 24/7, at a time when they feel at their most vulnerable. Am I BU to think that a party set up for women should be more considerate of what women want?

Why do people keep saying visitors needs over patients. I would have thought it was what the patient wanted. Some do and some don't so it's one set of patients needs over another set of patients needs

Well, one group of patients needs versus the needs of another group of patients plus their partners. The two positions are incompatible. Personally, I would accept that patients as a whole are the priority and facilitating visitors is a secondary concern. If it accepted that partners are vital and need to stay over, then proper facilities need to be provided e.g. Individual rooms with ensuite or separate visitor toilets. Not just dumping partners on a ward, on chairs or even the floor.

Patients in other parts of the hospital might want partners to stay overnight too, but they're not allowed to, because visitors are known to cause chaos on the wards. New fathers already have extended visiting times - I don't think it's too much to ask to have just the patients on the ward at night. Give them a bit of peace.

It's ridiculous that hospitals are introducing this, without any proper planning - just squishing 12 people in a ward designed for 6 (and that's cramped already with 6 beds, and 6 cots).

Culture. I think there is a difference in a visitor on a general ward and the partner of a woman on a maternity ward.

The second parent may not have given birth but they are (or should be) equally responsible for the upbringing of new life. And that should be from the start.

On the NICU both parents are allowed to visit 24/7. Where is the difference?

Oh as fanny said, the vast majority of women on this thread (who still appear to be greatly in the minority btw), who have said they would want their partner there, gave the reason that they did not feel they got enough help from the staff if left alone.
If that was addressed properly, do you not think new mums might cope a lot better overnight in hospital (all post natal wards have very extended visiting for partners anyway)?

Any overnight stay in hospital can be terrifying as a patient. I suffered a life threatening event 8 years ago, fortunately came out unscathed but was greatly traumatised. I desperately wanted my DH (then DP) to stay, or my mum, particularly that first night. But they couldn't, because wards have visiting rules to protect the privacy, dignity and physical/mental wellbeing of ALL the patients. Why is this most basic right of patients thought not to be as important on the post natal ward?

I would have no issue with partners staying overnight in private rooms, but absolutely not in a communal patient space.

The difference is because the mother in the postnatal ward is a patient, the father is not. I would have thought that was obvious? The mother isn't just there to care for the baby, she's there to recover from and often be treated for damage damage done by a massive stress on her body, which means she has an unusually high need for rest and privacy. If a man doesn't get this and is all about his rights as a father then frankly he is the last person you would want on a ward where women are trying to recover.

The difference between the postnatal ward and NICU is that the only patient in NICU is the baby. The mother will be in the postnatal ward or postnatal recovery room if she's lucky enough to be in a hospital that has individual rooms for all. Plus NICU has a very high number of staff present at all times, for obvious reasons. It's not the same at all.

Visitors should not be in hospitals. Women and babies may need nursing/midwife care. They don't need their partners there if the care they are being provided with is adequate to meet their needs.

For the survey, I had high risk, consultant led care. Failed induction followed by CS due to polyhydramnios. Also had severe SPD. Discharged myself after 3 nights (DS was born at 5.30pm so didn't get to the ward until nearly 9pm) because I could not bear to be in that horrible room with inadequate care and the swathes of visitors the woman opposite me had and who refused to leave until strong-armed by security (and spent quite a lot of time gawping at me).

I do not support partners staying over.

So what do you do when midwives too stretched to help a bed bound woman care for herself and her newborn overnight? Just let her wet the bed and the newborn scream? I am a confident woman and had already asked for help multiple times and had already had some conflict with a midwife who wanted to give me drugs that weren't what a consultant had prescribed, its not the case that I was too timid to ask for help, the help just never came. My husband stayed overnight on the floor and took the job of healthcare assistant. It doesn't look like there is going to be any increase in staffing on postnatal wards under the conservatives so partners staying over is often a needs must situation. I think one person should be allowed to stay over where there are complications post birth, I would say women only but that wouldn't be fair to the women who only have their partner in their lives. Obviously single rooms preferable, but again, unlikely under conservatives so when a woman can't go to the toilet by herself or move to the cot to pick up her baby then the only solution is for a visitor to sleep in chair\on floor on camping mat.

Very interesting point Werkz - hadn't thought about that but I wonder if any research has been done into recovery/establishing bf etc?

of course mothers who have just given birth may feel vulnerable but what about new partners that should be there from the start. Why should they be precluded.

Because they aren't the ones who have just given birth. Plenty of time to be a good father and learn how to look after a baby after you go home.

And if you RTFT you'd see that not everyone has a decent lovely partner. There are some real shits out there and why should a vulnerable woman who's just given birth be forced to share a room with them?

The mother isn't just there to care for the baby, she's there to recover from and often be treated for damage damage done by a massive stress on her body, which means she has an unusually high need for rest and privacy. If a man doesn't get this and is all about his rights as a father then frankly he is the last person you would want on a ward where women are trying to recover.

Well said Countess.

As I said already ohbehave, the rights of the patients who want partners there come below the rights of those who don't because we as a society and throughout the NHS generally feel mixed wards are a bad thing. They were tried and failed. And SCBU is different to the postnatal ward because it doesn't have any vulnerable women patients sleeping, washing, being examined and nursed on it. There is widespread societal acceptance that parents should be present on children's wards.

And it's not about needing it because there should be more nursing staff. It's because the other parent is just as valid as the mother at the start of a new life. Because they want to be there and help. To do their bit and be a good parent

the most important thing once a women gives birth is for her to rest and for feeding to be established be it bf or ff

of course a father is important but in the first few days his need to bond with his child are simply not as important as the mother or babies basic needs of care, milk, comfort and rest

On all three occasions that I gave birth from 93, 95, 2001, I and my ex were told he couldn't stay over. All births had problems (though were without birth trauma), as I had previous surgery/broken pelvis/needed MRI post birth due to prolactin tumour. We understood the rules, it was not a problem.

I was asked if I wanted a home birth for my third, but even though it would have been a lovely thing to do, I declined. I was given a private room instead and I have to say, this really helped with establishing the breast feeding.

I think bays on anti and post natal wards should be redesigned to be more private, but no more than two visitors in there at the same time. There are common rooms to go to for visiting.

Countess / Cerseirys. It's not just Men/fathers. It is female partners too.

And in the opinion of a Senior gyn obs Dr at my local hospital is that there are cases where the other parent should be present. One example was the case of a multiple birth where one of the babies had to go to the NICU and the mother needed the support of the partner. Mentally as well as physically. Was she. ( the dr ) wrong

April - then we campaign for better post-natal care. If your husband has to go into hospital for abdominal surgery, do you think you should sleep on the floor in case he needs a bedpan or help getting to the loo? Or you do expect that basic level of care should be provided as standard? Because I think that it absolutely should be provided. Your solution will simply lead to more cuts and a dangerous lack of care for women who don't have anyone able to stay over with them

I don't recall my hospital having any 'visiting hours'. DP came as soon as he got up and stayed till about 11/12pm. He only went home because there was no where for him to sleep . I HAD to stay in hospital for 5 days and I hated it, I cried every day to come home and I didn't have a choice so to those saying 'just have a home birth' I would have loved nothing more than to be in and out of hospital. And all the private rooms were full, but I can't see the arrangement changing unless everyone gets a room to themselves, which I don't think is an impossible ask. I was moved to a private room for the last 2 nights and it was huge, they could easily have more private, smaller rooms. I think that should be the issue, rather than men being allowed to stay overnight.

I don't think anyone has suggested there won't be occasions when there's a genuine clinical need for a woman to have 24/7 support from a partner, such as those with serious MH issues. The partner still shouldn't be on the ward though, it would need to be a private room. If that doctor was advocating the imposition of a strange man on several women, some of whom may have had equally or more significant reasons why they needed single sex care then yes, she may well have been wrong. In reality I suspect that's not what she was saying. Those are the sort of cases that are seen as having clinical need for a private room, which incidentally is why those of you who just feel like having your partners there shouldn't be able to pay for them either. They are needed for women in those scenarios.

"The second parent may not have given birth but they are (or should be) equally responsible for the upbringing of new life. And that should be from the start."

But the second parent is not in need of any medical care.

They are not ill, not vulnerable, not being medically examined, not bleeding, not breast feeding, not recovering from a major operation, not receiving blood to make up for what was lost during birth, not doing anything that any of the woman who are there as patients who have just given birth are doing or having anything done to them that is being done to those same women.

They can be equally responsible for the upbringing of a new life without taking up space in a hospital ward where their very presence might be making other patients feel stressed, scared, embarrassed, intimidated, uncomfortable or as though they have to leave before they are well enough.

If women leave the hospital early because they can't cope without help from their partner, that's a disgrace likely caused by an issue of under-staffing in the hospital, and we should all be campaigning for better care and more midwives, for the sake of all mothers and babies.

But that's a very different issue than a woman leaving hospital because she's frightened of another patient's visitors and feels she can't stay overnight in a ward full of strange men, many of whom are not going to be nice helpful men sitting quietly in chairs.

Instead they are men who have shouted at women in labour, abused staff, peered around curtains, watched breastfeeding strangers, made a nuisance of themselves and frightened and upset women they don't even know.

That's a bigger disgrace, because no patient should be so intimidated by someone else's visitors that they feel forced to leave when they still need medical care.

I do think the default should be that there are no partners overnight.

However I can see exceptions are going to be needed - when having a DP because of language difficulties or long term health conditions and there should perhaps be more accommodation of this - more private rooms perhaps.

And in the opinion of a Senior gyn obs Dr at my local hospital is that there are cases where the other parent should be present. One example was the case of a multiple birth where one of the babies had to go to the NICU and the mother needed the support of the partner. Mentally as well as physically. Was she. ( the dr ) wrong

I thought the staff on postnatal ward with first were being rude abrupt because they were busy. Turn out there were only four of us - all jammed into the one bay for their convenience.

The woman next to me was in this position - c section struggling with twin she had and one in NICU - Dad sent home. She was in a hell of a state - I wasn't doing that well and was struggling with pain, blood and a very clingy baby so really wasn't in position to help her. It was very distressing to be round - she cried all night as did her baby and had no idea how the other baby was and they kept saying they'd check and never came back. The DP came in the morning completely shocked at the state of her.

They could have put that mother and DP is another separate bay - and not bothered anyone else - or one of few private rooms. It just didn't seem to occur to the staff to do anything like that - or offer support to that mother in the night.

By time we left early afternoon she still hadn't been taken down to see other twin - despite her DP advocating for her.

Having more people wandering round isn't a good idea. Not least because after being kept waiting hours for discharge we just ended up walking out. Baby had already got out of security tag and no one challenged us at all - found out later we weren't only ones who found that.

Perhaps instead of campaigning for universal DP overnight on post natal wards - better staffing and facilities to accommodate the exceptions where DP really are needed not just wanted without infringing on other women's need for privacy and security at vulnerable times. Or in effect better post natal care on wards and a humane attitude in staff.

Op. Does the actually policy state "on mixed wards" or is it saying that there should be facilities for both.

Is this a non argument as they intricacies of the system have not been mentioned.

Because you Abu of the whole policy is based around supporting both those that do want partners around and those that don't.

If the policy is that all in one big ward should be the case then yanbu.

The WEP's policies are very vague.

They don't seem to have any maternity care policy at all.

The only time they mention women giving birth is in their section on greater rights for dads.

Which says it all really.

Sadly, everything I've seen suggests that the WEP do seem to prioritise people with penises.

Whether they identify as male or female.

Ohbehave, I linked to the exact page in my OP but the wording they use is:

"Even hospitals don’t seem to take dads seriously. Many treat new fathers and new co-parents as visitors who have to stick to visiting hours or at best sleep in a chair. All new mums should be allowed a partner with them 24-7 if they choose."

They don't indicate whether this should be in a private room or ward but as the two PPs say, WEP doesn't appear to have given any of their policies much thought and need to do a bit more research.