To think the WEP should not be campaigning for men to be allowed to stay overnight on postnatal wards?

[CallaLilli]

I was just having a look at some of the objectives for the WEP and noticed they have a Stand Up for Dads campaign. Now whilst I agree with a lot of what they say on that page, one of the things they say is:

“hospitals don’t seem to take dads seriously. Many treat new fathers and new co-parents as visitors who have to stick to visiting hours or at best sleep in a chair. All new mums should be allowed a partner with them 24-7 if they choose.”

Countless women on MN have spoken of their experiences on postnatal wards and the majority of them have said that they would not want men staying on the ward 24/7, at a time when they feel at their most vulnerable. Am I BU to think that a party set up for women should be more considerate of what women want?

Two straightforward labours.
Second degree tear with DC 1. In MW led unit, with ensuite private rooms in birth centre. DP stayed.
DC 2born in middle of the night. Laboured alone and much preferred this.

Really can't support men on the wards 24/7. My DP is a SAH dad even though he didn't even witness my DDs birth. He was much more hands on from the start with DC2 despite being less involved in the birth and not being with us in the hospital.

Thankyou to whoever reported the comment to me

Who was mail?

For the quick survey:

DC1: Long labour ending in ELCS. 2 nts in hospital.

I'm against men sleeping over, mainly because of having worked in hospitals and in maternity and I think the consequence of having extra 'patients' (and, for the staff, I suspect these extra people bring more work than they save) would be disastrous. Just today a friend was telling me that her dh drove the midwives mad during her labour, kept asking them to fax documents for him FGS.

There's something that never seems to come up in these men on post natal wards threads, and that is the potential biochemical impact of strange men in the environment of a recently delivered mother.

We know strangers around a labouring woman interferes with oxytocin release, making labour more painful, and, in some cases, it can almost arrest the labour process. I know my contractions got noticeably worse when a midwife I didn't know came in the room.

It doesn't seem that much of a leap of reason to suggest strangers in a post-natal environment may provoke some type of similar response in terms of post-natal biochemistry, particularly if they are strange men - a situation that could interfere with bonding and other processes, not just the obvious anxieties caused by noise and the need for privacy to establish breastfeeding.

My experience in a 4 bed room was that there were 2 2 hour visiting times. Partners or immediate family could come anytime during the day but outside visiting hours it was "quiet time", the expectation was that patients could nap and see doctor etc in that time. Straight after labour, Dads would stay for the first 12 hours regardless of the time if they wanted to. Overnight dp went home to sleep but the nurses were fantastic and quick to help. Visitors were not to use the bathrooms (visitor bathroom was down the hall).

That hospital now has max 2 in a room.

The private hospital in my town has partners staying overnight but it has all private rooms.

When I had dd3 visiting hours were sensible and restricted. 3hrs in the afternoon when no visitors were allowed at all, the ward was closed. Open visiting from about 3 to 8 but no more than 2 people per bed. At 8 everyone went apart from partners (or nominated person if single) and they went at 10. It was firmly enforced by all the staff as otherwise their working environment became a zoo. I was in for 6 days, it was still unbearable but at least there was a bit of structure.

First time: I had PGP (so could barely stand/walk/move) before birth, pre-eclampsia including seizures, and was admitted for 3 weeks before birth. I had a c-section which then had horrible, agonising complications, and was in for 2.5 weeks after birth.

I was in a room with five other women before delivering, then a private room afterwards.

I would not have wanted my DP to stay with me overnight.

Second time: Elective c-section, no complications, in for 2 nights. Noticeable decline in the number of midwives around to help since first time. In a private room. Still wouldn't want DP there overnight, in fact it was fab having 48 hours with the new baby before I had to go home and deal with everyone else too.

Having been determined not to go to hospital at all, and then once delivered there to get home before lunch, I found myself there for 4 nights. The first night, desperate and sleepless following the previous night's labour I was beside myself. With a baby with complications, and mad with lack of sleep and desperate at the thought of more nights in hospital, they moved me into a single room. The first night we smuggled DP in, he just stayed, and shared my bed. The night after that they brought him a visitor mattress for the floor. I was so pleased, it made it bearable.
I can see there are problems with men in bays, but it felt so unnatural to be seperated at the very moment of becoming patents together.

For the survey

Ds1 natural birth at a midwife led centre. Third degree episiotomy/tear from one end to the other. Taken by ambulance to hospital to have placenta removed and to be sewn up. Transferred next day to maternity home, discharged after being "rescued" by my midwife 5 days later, total of 6 days in hospital/maternity home

Dd CS due to ds1 birth. In for 48 hours

Ds2 as dd. In for 26 hours, begged to be discharged. Too noisy

Dh not allowed to stay, dont think he should have been allowed to

I dont think men should sleep over...at all!! I do think we need better maternity aftercare so women dont feel that they need this

Dh went home at midnight ish on the first night, visting hours were strict for eveyone except fathers but dh was at work so only visited in the evenings

For the survey- DC1 PROM, one night on antenatal ward, ventouse delivery with drip after 48 hour labour, two nights on postnatal ward. DC2, EMCS, three nights on postnatal ward thankfully in own room for two of them, baby in SCBU for 48 hours, the usual jazz. Back in to paediatrics for a day after being sent home. Midwife led initially in both cases but that soon turned to shit! Wasn't even allowed to cross the threshold of the MLU with DC1, with DC2 I was triaged in there and that's when they started to notice things were going tits up.

I answered the survey in order to demonstrate that plenty of us who had a very tough time still are against DPs being there. And I reject the premise that you need your partner there if you and/or baby are ill because actually, almost to a woman, those who have made this claim are saying they needed them there because they required help. So what the large majority of them actually needed was medical and nursing care, from people who are trained to do it. That is, more staff.

For the purposes of the survey:

DC1 - EMCS, fairly straightforward, some feeding difficulties, 4 nights in hospital, no 24 hour visiting policy

DC2 & 3 - ELCS, 3 nights in hospital, feeding difficulties again, 24 hour visiting now allowed.

Against men being allowed overnight. Against any visitors being allowed overnight. I got stared at, sworn at and kept awake. Looking at the bigger picture, it's purely used as a way of not paying for appropriate care and staffing.

Firstly - you want your partner there then pay for the room. What a stupid comment. What you mean by that is if you an afford it it's fine. Not everyone that would like or need their partner there can afford it.

Secondly, it seems that a lot of this is just selfishness on both sides. "I don't want anyone else's partner there because of whatever reason". What about those that desperately need their partner? Someone who has had a multiple birth or an at risk birth which has left them incapacitated.

Who needs it the most? The person who objects to overnight partners? Why are they more important than those that may need their partner to stay. Just because more people object, doesn't make it the right choice.

And yes, of course mothers who have just given birth may feel vulnerable but what about new partners that should be there from the start. Why should they be precluded.

I think yabu op, but only because you haven't thought of the many families that need to start life together and not be separated at what is a difficult time

The obvious answer is areas that allow stayers and those that don't.

Well as a man I was totally glad that I could stay with my other half when out daughter was born and she was just as glad too, having someone there to support you overnight was quite critical for her. Everyone else on the ward that I spoke to also shared the sentiment - little things like nipping off to pick up something from a shop, picking up the baby when needed, getting fresh water and just knowing that your special someone is a literal word away is a huge comfort, especially when you've delivered by section and moving around a lot isn't an option. Obviously I get not everyone wants men on the ward 24/7 but plenty do and at least having the option available is the right thing in my book.

Oh. And it's not about needing it because there should be more nursing staff. It's because the other parent is just as valid as the mother at the start of a new life. Because they want to be there and help. To do their bit and be a good parent.

Ohbehave - I had a multiple birth, and while I didn't have enough help, I still wouldn't have wanted my husband there overnight. Care was patchy on the ward, and still I wouldn't have wanted him there. Yes, I had the confidence to shout (literally) when I needed something, which I understand others may not feel able to, but I'm looking at the good of everybody. Care should be better. There should be more appropriately qualified staff on the ward. Apart from very extreme circumstances, there shouldn't be a need for 24 hour visitors. Most of those for it on this thread have been for it because they've been unable to get the care they need post-birth. We can all think of ourselves here, or we can think of the future of our health service whe these babies we're having are having their own babies. If we let it decay now, what kind of service will they have? Will I be delivering my grandchildren?

I've just given birth to DS2, 4 years after DS1.

The hospital has changed its policy in that time to enable fathers to stay overnight. With DS1 I think they were suppose to be kicked out at 9 but this wasn't enforced - I think DH went home around 11.30, but we were in a single room so no impact on others.

However what I think is crucially important is that almost all postnatal rooms (apart from high dependence) are single-bed ensuite rooms now, so dads staying have a limited impact on other women.

That said, DH didn't stay overnight with DS2, because of DS1. DS2 was born at 9pm ish, we finally made it to the ward around 2am and DH went home to get a few hours' sleep before collecting DS1 from friends.

I mostly had 6 hours transfers - (home same day so no night in hospital or else first thing next morning) and husband not staying in - this was a while ago as I have teenagers. My daughter recently was able to pay for a charge to the London hospital so she and her husband could stay in - that was charged per night and they had an en suite loo, shower etc. She had a good bed and he had a seat which changed into a sofa bed. It was worth paying for that service (if you can afford it) and privacy. When I had her I came home the same day and it was absolute bliss to be alone at home with her just in silence to look at her, feed her, no interruptions or anything - one reason I prefer home births (one of mine was a home birth - the nicest one).

So Darth, how do you think things should be organised when the only beds available are in the wards where dads can stay, and a woman who wants to be cared for in a single sex ward the same as in the rest of the NHS needs to be admitted? This is the problem with the talk of 'options'. It's all very well, but in the event of a clash someone will need to take priority.

Ohbehave, the person who has just given birth is more important than the one who hasn't, because the patient is more important than the not patient. And the women who don't want men there take precedence over those who do because we, as a nation, do not want mixed sex wards in hospitals. That was tried, it failed, there has been widespread support for getting rid of it. Women in postnatal wards have the same right to dignity and single sex environments as every other patient. And these rights are more important than the rights of non-patients.

I have no problem with people staying over in individual rooms with ensuite facilities (or strictly enforced visitor toilets so visitors don't get in the way of patients).

I'm currently pregnant (still early days) and the hospital where I had DS1 has changed its policy to allow partners to stay over, in the curtained bay ward (which is very large as well). It was horrific last time, just with visiting hours being long. This time, I don't know what I'll do, as I know I won't be able to sleep or feel comfortable with random people (mainly men) around all night. I don't want my DP to stay over night as he will need to look after my DS1 and also try and get some proper rest. The hospital only provide chairs for visitors not beds. I can only hope that I and baby will be well enough to go home the same day, and not have to stay. It's actually quite upsetting to know that I'm going to be subjected to such substandard "care". I don't know how the staff on the ward are meant to safeguard women and babies from all these extra people. Last time, at night they had 1 or 2 staff on duty, will this be increased? I plan on asking the supervisor of midwives how they handle this, and also ask them how it squares with the general policy of removing mixed sex wards. It seems that post natal women are not permitted their privacy and dignity where other patients are.

Fanny. What about the "rights" of the patient that wants their partner there?

Fondant. I have a polar opposite experience of multiple birth. Who is right? Me? You? Both I expect.

The two viewpoints are incompatible where you're talking about a ward with curtained bays. The only solution is individual rooms, preferably ensuite. Unfortunately many hospitals aren't going to be able to offer that. So one set of patients are going to be affected, whatever each individual hospital decides to do.

I tend to think that visitors should come second to patients, and that it isn't appropriate for visitors to be given priority over the needs of other patients. I appreciate that not everyone will agree with this: