To think the WEP should not be campaigning for men to be allowed to stay overnight on postnatal wards?

[CallaLilli]

I was just having a look at some of the objectives for the WEP and noticed they have a Stand Up for Dads campaign. Now whilst I agree with a lot of what they say on that page, one of the things they say is:

“hospitals don’t seem to take dads seriously. Many treat new fathers and new co-parents as visitors who have to stick to visiting hours or at best sleep in a chair. All new mums should be allowed a partner with them 24-7 if they choose.”

Countless women on MN have spoken of their experiences on postnatal wards and the majority of them have said that they would not want men staying on the ward 24/7, at a time when they feel at their most vulnerable. Am I BU to think that a party set up for women should be more considerate of what women want?

Are the WEP starting from the premise that there will shortly be no need for segregation by sex; I wonder?

They don't believe in sex. They believe in gender instead. That's what I deduce from their stance on transwomen in women's spaces.

Maternity is for women, not men. Can't they let us keep one little thing for ourselves?

No, of course not. Because that would be transphobic.

I used to have lots of pity for transsexuals. It is completely used up now with their bullshit claims that Male-to-Trans transsexuals are "female".

INickedAName but why is it up to the NHS' to sort out peoples' religious problems? If a woman had an issue with being undressed in front of males I would suggest a home birth (or avoid getting pregnant), as there is no guarantee you would have a female midwife/doctor during labour, so this in itself would be a problem, no?
If I had strict religious beliefs that I felt were not being catered to, then I would go give birth in a country where they were.. That's not me being callous, but in the real world we cannot attend to everybody's religious wants/needs without offending somebody else. If you don't like the way it is done here then leave. Simples.

What? In which world do you live?

I know no culture where women don't have issues with being undressed in front of males.

I am from Germany. More or less atheist with Christian background, as most people here. And my unwillingness to have male strangers stare at my naked body has zero to do with religion. It has to do with dignity and safety.

Besides, you are deluded if you really think unwanted pregnancy doesn't happen. It happens frequently, and I would guess it MOST OFTEN happens to those women whose "religion" or "culture" allows their husbands to rape them, but demands that they cover their face in front of male strangers.
(Their FACE, mind. EVERY culture requires women to not be naked in presence of males, lest the male feel the irresistible desire to rape them. A myth which males from all cultures willingly uphold, but then suddenly want to be suspended when they want to visit a maternity ward. Or become doctors.)

Home birth? Haha, as if. In Germany, home birth will soon be close to impossible for everyone but the super-rich.

That's something the WEP should campaign against: The awful treatment of midwives.

I wasn't saying my needs trumps anyone else's needs it was just my opinion.
I would discharge myself against medical advice although i know it would be very dangerous if my dh wasn't there.
I nearly died this year and my treatment was appalling every time i was admitted, so much so that whenever i get any worrying symptoms i go to another hospital over an hour away from me now just because it has scared me so much.
My dh calms me.
I don't know what the answer is.
I can see both sides.

tiggytape Wed 25-Nov-15 11:23:15
I get that some feel this is not acceptable but then we need to look at what can make it acceptable
Nothing would make it acceptable for me unless it was guaranteed that no new mother would be forced to share her sleeping space or bathroom facilities with a non patient overnight (I don't care whether that stranger is a partner, husband or whoever).
A male stranger is probably worse in terms of privacy and feeling vulnerable but actually any additional people staying all night create noise and nuisance to some degree and nobody should have to put up with that when they are in hospital to recover.
So basically single rooms for all and en suites.

I'm sure that it would be much worse for abused women to have their own private room with their abuser straight after having a baby.

I have to disagree with the statement that there is " plenty of staff if you need help". Not in my hospital there wasn't.

I would have hated this. There's a multitude of religious, cultural & personal reasons why women might not feel comfortable sleeping in the same space as an unknown man. I would hate it, for no other reason than I'm shy & protective of my personal space.

@AndNow: But there SHOULD be plenty of staff. And that is the problem the WEP should be addressing.

If it is just for the help, you could also have a female relative staying with you - also noisy, etc. , but not as invading the privacy of other women.
(Though I am really against this being necessary - comparatively rich countries should be able to provide all patients with food and care by the hospital staff. There should be no need for relatives to help out.)

Just coming back to this and I know stuff has moved on:

guajira I did read your posts properly, thanks. I know your rationale. But my point was, your logic applies equally to a traumatised post-abuse woman. A woman who doesn't want a man looking at her naked for any reason has an absolute right not to have that happen IMO. Whether that man is a random letch, a qualified dr or Father Christmas!

I see you've had nasty experiences of your own though and I'm sorry for those.

And I do know a few female urologists, too.

Knotty that really isn't a like for like comparison. Urology as a discipline deals with male and female patients. I should know, I've been under a urologist's care for about 6 years now! They deal kidney surgery and surgery around the ureter too, which obvs both men and women have.

Whereas andrology (obviously :) ) only applies to men.

sorry but no way would i want a strange man sleeping beside me in a ward .usually the father can stay from 10.am until 8pm well in our local hospital .and to be honest i liked being by myself with my sons for two days .god fathers just visited for two hrs /3/4 7/8 in the 90,s .my hubby was happy with that it made him happy we were fine but he would not have wanted to be there all day .after all its us who do all the hard work .and you could get no rest with your hubby there all day .

Vestal I agree the lack of staffing should be looked.

At.

I am disabled my dh was required to stay with me ( in a private room) to provide care. The midwifes said they were not set up to care for me. I was glad he was their however it meant we had to find childcare for my other dc.

swg1 - hospitals do try to organise wards/beds according to clinical care needs and the staff available - it's not completely random! Even so, it's a tricky job and often overwhelmed by the pressure on beds. I can't believe they'd welcome an extra duty to keep apart 24/7 dps from others.

Also, it's worth remembering that most hospitals can and do allow exceptions to 'no visitors' rules. I remember, from when I worked in the NHS, partners being allowed to stay for women who couldn't speak English or who are blind and deaf.

Last point: the hypothesis that this will help men to be better fathers is untested. The fact that some men say it does does not mean it actually does, or that any effect is sustained. And it does slightly piss me off that it seems so widely accepted that it's up to women to make it as easy and appealing as possible for me to fulfil their parental responsibilities. I don't think men suffer any equivalent pressure to do that for women!

I think WEP should campaign for better care for post-natal women and babies.

I doubt a ward full of men who had just had major abdominal surgery or who were on Labetolol IVs or who were bleeding heavily would be expected to be satisfied with substandard levels of nursing and medical care, substandard nutrition and excess disturbance and noise. In fact the hospital would be on the receiving end of complaints and rightly so.

Equality means good care and dignity for all.

Exactly Devora. Most women are in hospital for well under a week and many men wouldn't be able to stay because of other family etc - have these 10-30 hours ( often visiting hours are 12h daily anyway for DPs) made all the difference to good/bad bonding.

And given it comes under "stand up for dad" is it about helping the mum as we all are assuming or about the bonding?

What about a campaign for the two weeks of paternity leave to be increased by the number of days the woman is in hospital? Then all women get two full weeks of support at home.

What about a campaign for the two weeks of paternity leave to be increased by the number of days the woman is in hospital? Then all women get two full weeks of support at home.

Why stop there? There should be a couple of months paternity leave that is separate from maternity leave, so that only the husband can get it.

A feminist party should work to end discrimination in the workplace, and by making men as much of a "risk" to employers as women, a lot of inequality would be removed.

(Of course it is debatable whether the WEP understands itself as a feminist party, as "women" apparently means "everyone who says they're a woman")

Yy Vestal - I was thinking specifically of post birth support that could happen without impacting other new mums

After all, in a hospital, even an understaffed one, someone will come eventually; at home, it might be 8-10 hours.

you yes i clearly think my needs are more important for simply voicing my opinion.
Your post is just a nasty attack.
So much for this site supporting women with mental health problems, happy now you've got that off your chest?

I also have disabilities, would you like to attack them also?

kali Many women have MH issues which means that strange men overnight is frightening and triggering for them. I don't know what made you suggest that women with MH issues are not being supported when that is exactly what some of us are trying to do!!

Did you read the message that keep wrote to me MR?
I've said repeatedly that i can see it from both sides i only said my opinion would be to have my oh there.

Actually, I get what [b]kali[/b] means. Poor medical care, particularly the type where you're trapped and vulnerable as a patient and no-one is listening to you can cause a type of PTSD where you get extremely anxious about being in that position again. Same reason I refuse to give birth without a C-section this round - the idea of an induction makes me incredibly anxious to the point where I would risk my and my baby's health and if necessary avoid extremely needed medical care if that was my only option. It's not the same as "gets a bit anxious without a cigarette" and shouldn't be classed as such; it's far closer to the anxiety experienced by people who have been violated.

Yes, it's good to say "Well, that shouldn't happen in the first place" but in these cases [i]that has already happened[/i]. They can't be untraumatised, and there needs to be some help available. Homebirth is not a solution when people subject to this kind of anxiety are more likely than usual to have complex medical needs. Private rooms might be - if they are available. But the feeling that you need an advocate at all times, that someone might come and Do Things to you without asking if someone isn't with you is not unreasonable [i]if that already happened once[/i].