...to think these girls aren't 'strong-willed', they're just a nightmare?

[Jhm9rhs]

In my DS' year (Y1) there is a core of 3-4 girls who are 'the popular girls'. Frankly, I thank my lucky stars that I have sons, because they don't really notice these girls. But they do have lots of little girl friends and I hear endless tales of this little clique...the girls themselves desperate to belong, and their mothers telling stories of bullying, manipulation, exclusion, bribery etc.

Tonight I have been shocked to witness an almost self-congratulatory thread on FB between three of these girls' mothers, joking about how hard it is to parent 'naturally strong-willed and feisty' girls, but really full of pride about what one called 'their alpha girls'.

I wanted to step in and say 'actually, they aren't strong-willed, they're incredibly spoilt and entitled and could do with a few lessons on kindness'. Naturally I didn't.

Then I started to wonder if, in fact, these women are well aware of how mean their children can be, but are so relieved they're not being bullied that they just ignore it

AIBU? Are some kids just born like this?

The kids are not behaving brilliantly, but they are kids. They have the capacity to learn better.

Sadly they probably won't if their mothers are behaving so stupidly.

In this case I definitely blame the parents.......

Well I do think kindness is very important, and more important than being "alpha" all the time.

They are only 5 though as others have said.

The Mums sound delightful though

"I wanted to step in and say 'actually, they aren't strong-willed, they're incredibly spoilt and entitled and could do with a few lessons on kindness'. Naturally I didn't."

Their parents sound like twats. Pah, go and have a couple of glasses of wine too many and tell them what you think of their little alphas' behaviour.

At 5 they are just learning the basics of how to be friends and how to play with each other. At this age, of course some of the children will get it wrong and will manipulate or bully. That is why adults such as teachers at this age, gently correct their behaviour.
You seem incredibly judgemental of such small children.

Like PPs have said, yanbu for finding the parents' chat , but I think YABU for apparently disliking 5 / 6 year olds based on tales from other 5 / 6 year olds.

If the girls have been unkind to other children at school I also suspect their parents' fb chat is born of embarrassment and they are maybe trying to justify their DC's behaviour.

to be fair i think there are alpha females as well as alpha males. middle child is a full on alpha male, not disasterous (in my eyes or school) while the other two, boy and girl are laid back and go with the flow.

it will benefit him in life as he is a determined child and at 8 knows what he wants to do as an adult and i see him putting in the work at school to do this (yes i know )

dd in yr2 has been in and out of the 'clique' since reception and i know that it bothers her that she isnt strongwilled like the alpha girls but such is life and you have to just rub along with them

stories of bullying, manipulation, exclusion, bribery etc.
I think some people are blinkered as to how nasty some five year olds can be.Also the 'oh they're only little' argument doesn't cut it with someone who is the same size or perhaps smaller than the bully.
YANBU OP some parents think as long as their only buttercup is happy stuff what they are doing to the other kids.

But if they're behaving in an unkind way at school aged 5, as some children do, it's the parents' at fault not the kids.

I do think it's important for schools to recognise when small children are bullying others though. It's tempting for teachers to say "Oh little X is so well settled, she's/he's got lots of friends" etc, when actually that child is being unkind and excluding others. There tends to be a bit of a victim blaming culture at schools, when kids who are left out get described as "a bit of a loner" "not fitting in" or "has trouble making friends". Sometimes that is the lovely kind child who is just less determined than the others, and some "alpha" child has decided they are the one to exclude.

and in my DS's yr there is definitely a ringleader of the boys. He decides who plays with who and what which means he can very easily upset others and get his way by means of exclusion.

The 'they're only 5' argument doesn't hold any credence with me. At 3 my preschooler is already quoting 'I'm not going to be your friend' and suchlike. She isn't hearing this at home so is definitely picking it up amongst her peers.
Some people are in denial about their own kids' behaviour. I wonder if it was your 5/6 year old coming home heartbroken if you would still be of the opinion 'they're only little'.

When my dgs was told he could only play with X if he did y his response was,'No thank you.' He always says this if other children ask/tell him to do something he feels isn't for him. He is now in Y2 and his class chose him as their school council rep.

DS had a year group like this - they were mirroring the parents behaviour - it was only year group of parents that was a nightmare as well.

School handled it well - it had a strong supportive management and experienced teachers and good behavioural policies. However it was still visible in yr1,2 and 3 but handled by the school so it's impact was mitigated and the girls behaviour showed improvement in school with advancing years.

However the parents attitude never improved.

Yanbu. Deliberately excluding someone is an act of non-physical violence, it hurts as much as being physically attacked. This type of behaviour should be nipped in the bud just like stealing or vandalism.

The girls are probably ok for now but their mothers sound like nightmares.

i had to keep my ds at home for 2 days last yr due to another boy's behaviour towards him - and that was on the advice of the nspcc!

There tends to be a bit of a victim blaming culture at schools, when kids who are left out get described as "a bit of a loner" "not fitting in" or "has trouble making friends".

This was me right through my school days, until 6th form. I still wonder if my social skills are up to scratch, even though I know I suffered the most awful low-level insidious exclusionary bullying for everything from being rubbish at tag (because I couldn't run for toffee) and Chinese whispers (because I am hearing impaired) to using too many long words and not liking Wham!

It's unfortunately my experience from my own DCs that primary schools aren't always on the ball with managing children's friendships. Teachers are trained in delivering a curriculum, not in child psychology. Teaching assistants are pitifully low-paid and often under-trained themselves for the kind of work they're asked to do, and their ability in this kind of thing can be patchy and rely a lot on 'common sense' approaches. So much of this type of bullying happens under the radar, or indeed can be condoned by a particularly competitive school culture, or poor school management generally.

*that was in reception fgs

An Alpha 5 year old girl??!! Sounds like a Brat.

Y1 DS Friend hit him really hard, friend was heard saying ... hit me back then I wont be in trouble` ... manipulative .... very ... only one example of a 5 year old ... who was always in trouble.

Their mothers sound fucking awful. They sound like children themselves!

I actually feel sorry for the girls having mothers like that, being proud of and probably encourage the girls to behave like that!

Pathetic.

teachers are being let off the hook in this thread . Not excusing the parents, but if op can see what is happening , then the teachers shd be able to see it too . And the teachers have a duty to do something about it. The culture in a school that does not deal with this kind of behaviour is the 3 little monkeys= no see no hear no do. Op do you sometimes feel you see too much? disturbing isn't it?

Watch "Secret Life of a 4 Year Old". It shows how children learn about friendships.

pranmas your dgs has got the right answer sorted from day one, seemingly naturally. Good for him.

Lots of kids just find it too hard to say "no thank you". They are too driven to please.

That's why adults need to step in and not condone the law of the jungle among kids.

There is so much 'emotion' and displays of feelings on movies and tv that small DCs watch that I think they probably re enact what they have seen (over and over and over) and perhaps experiment to see what the response is to it.

Especially the Disney movies, all those downcast eyes or coy smiles or expressions showing heartbreaking disappointment.

They're not really real life, everything in close up and exaggerated for an international audience. Though of course there are kind actions on them too.

• as an oldie the only tv for me at that age was Andy Pandy et al