...to think these girls aren't 'strong-willed', they're just a nightmare?

[Jhm9rhs]

In my DS' year (Y1) there is a core of 3-4 girls who are 'the popular girls'. Frankly, I thank my lucky stars that I have sons, because they don't really notice these girls. But they do have lots of little girl friends and I hear endless tales of this little clique...the girls themselves desperate to belong, and their mothers telling stories of bullying, manipulation, exclusion, bribery etc.

Tonight I have been shocked to witness an almost self-congratulatory thread on FB between three of these girls' mothers, joking about how hard it is to parent 'naturally strong-willed and feisty' girls, but really full of pride about what one called 'their alpha girls'.

I wanted to step in and say 'actually, they aren't strong-willed, they're incredibly spoilt and entitled and could do with a few lessons on kindness'. Naturally I didn't.

Then I started to wonder if, in fact, these women are well aware of how mean their children can be, but are so relieved they're not being bullied that they just ignore it

AIBU? Are some kids just born like this?

[theycallmemellojello]

I agree with a pp that this post comes across as very anti girl. Clearly the 4 and 5 year olds are not the ones at fault here. Op, you need to think about what it is about you that makes you feel this way. And yes a glance at the scope of human activity across society and the world suggests that women and girls are not inherently worse people who act more unkindly than men and boys. Ffs.

[CoperCabana]

I would speak to the school directly or get one of the parents involved to.

I wouldn't think too harshly of the girls involved. Sounds like the parenting is at fault here. I know two of the girls who were causing trouble in DDs school, and both came from tough backgrounds.

[Geraniumred]

Have the mums of the bullied girls taken any action? Surely that would be their job, not yours if your ds is not affected?

[PiperIsTerrysChoclateOrange]

My DD aged 6 is very strong willed. If she does want to do something she will not.

Her behaviour at home and in school is extremely good, so much so she is a prefect.

She can get people to do as she wants, by just being her.

I don't know how she does it, but she does.

[RaskolnikovsGarret]

The cliquey bully type girls at DDs' school were like that in Reception through to Y6, and certainly mirrored their parents' behaviour. I do think young children are capable of manipulative, unpleasant behaviour, and I don't know why excuses are made for them. These strong-willed children hurt other children and I don't think that encouraging this so-called feistiness is a good thing.

[PiperIsTerrysChoclateOrange]

My post generally is about strong willed children.

Being strong willed and bullying is 2 separate things.

If these girls behaviour don't improve they will not have any friends, as children grow they don't want invite bully's to party or to come over to play.

[Geraniumred]

Being strong willed is different from being manipulative. It is perfectly possible to be strong willed and kind and empathetic. In fact, surely resorting to manipulation is more a sign of weakness and desperation?

[Jhm9rhs]

As I said, I don't think I'm anti girl at all. I am simply glad I have sons in this particular class, not daughters, because these particular girls are only unkind to other girls. I am certain boys can behave equally badly, but in this particular class they do not.

I don't blame the year 1 girls, I am annoyed by their mums' attitude. I thought I made that clear in my OP but perhaps it was poorly worded.

As I have already stated, I think it's my own experience at junior school which probably makes me overly sensitive to this.

[SirChenjin]

There were girls like that in my teens primary school classes, and there are girls like that in DC3s class. They grew up to be the Queen Bees of the class, will other girls desperate to be liked by them - it was sad to watch, but when I met their parents I realised that the saying 'the apple doesn't fall far from the tree' is very true.

[MummyZELC]

Children aren't born bullies, aren't born to exclude and look down on other kids. That kind of behaviour is instilled in them by the idiots who bring them up. I can think of one woman in particular who says her daughter is 'just so popular' when in actual fact she is domineering, mean and aggressive. Constantly giving someone the stink eye and it's very unnerving for some kids. My DD is extremely sensitive but always wanted this girl to like her.

[Mactomac]

I've come across this sort of resentment/dislike/judgement towards bright socially skilled girls before. They are only 5/6, they're really just finding their way, all kids can be unpleasant sometimes. The only people thinking otherwise usually (IME) turns out to be sour grapes from mums of summer born boys who are miles behind socially and academically.

[Dungandbother]

I have a DD (and a DS)

I heard horror stories about girl cliques from YR at our school. Then I saw them for myself. A classmate has an older sister, some of the behaviour is shocking, there has even been fighting. I've seen it.

As DD went up the school, I kept thinking this is it, this is the year the bitchiness starts.... But so far, it hasn't. Her peer group are very nice.

I know it will happen at some point, but I teach my DD compassion, kindness but also self esteem.

I believe the OP, it can be there at age 5. It is apparent in DS class. It never was in DD's and has remained that way.

[WhatamessIgotinto]

I remember talking to another mum once and she was telling me that she has taught her DD to always want to be 'top dog'. She taught her that crying was for the weak and not to stop at anything to get what she wanted, no matter who was in her way. She was in year 1.

[SirChenjin]

Oh it definitely happens from an early age. Some parents are deluded loons when it comes to their kids behaviour.

[YouTheCat]

I work with year R and year 1 children, mainly. I've never seen this.

I've seen kids who don't know how to engage with their peers who can appear a bit aggressive but never actual cliques at this age. That usually doesn't start until year 4/5.

[Senpai]

Senpai most of the year 1 kids I know have some empathy and certainly an ability to share, co-operate and think of others a lot of the time.

No they don't.

They just follow the rules better than others. Just like the ones that wait in line instead of wandering off. Or the ones that put their trash in the bin instead of leaving it on the ground.

They don't have empathy, they just know that "sharing" and "playing nice" is the rule, and follow it.

[Jhm9rhs]

Mactomac, your description doesn't apply to myself or my sons.

Nor does it apply to the girls (though it sounds like something their mothers would say). I don't think being deliberately unkind to others is a sign of being socially skilled.

[KERALA1]

Have two dds. Only issues we've ever had with unkindness has been from boys - one charming group took to seeking dd out and being mean about her hair which is different from the norm. Don't buy all this boys are so straightforward girls are little witches nonsense.

[AryaOfWinterfell]

This happened with DD2. There was a group of girls who used to tell her to go away as they didn't want to play with her. They used to say this to any girl not in their group and happened as soon as they started school. They had all been to nursery together so knew each other before yR.
It got that bad in the end that several of us moved our DDs to different schools to get away from them. DD1 didn't have this at the same school & DD2 leant have this in her new school so I wouldn't say it's a general girl thing.
I agree with pps in that the groups Mums' were exactly the same. Only talked to each other and would look away if you happened to glance in their direction.
Now they're at the end of primary I gather from friends who still have children there that they haven't got any better.

[AryaOfWinterfell]

*DD2 doesn't have

[Jhm9rhs]

Arya these children were at nursery together too.

Senpai I accept you may well be much better educated on this subject than I. Personally I feel I've seen many children of 5 and 6 exhibit genuine empathy, obviously not at an adult level but not in a simple 'following the rules' way either. I might have misinterpreted it, as I say, I'm not an expert.

[Geraniumred]

Toddlers can display empathy - has a quick google of child development - but 4 year olds will still be learning about it.

[HPsauciness]

I have had one dd who went through school without anything remotely like this.

I have one dd who is in a class exactly like this, there are several girls best described as 'strong-willed' and very bossy, unfortunately this has made for a lot of fallings out and a lot of cliquey behaviour bordering on bullying at times. These few girls are all academically successful, confident, rude (to my eyes when they come around my house) and I've noticed their parents laugh nervously a lot when they are a bit rude or refuse to do something, and rarely actually stop them doing it or make them be politer.

Having watched them since Year 2 (why is everyone saying 4/5 year olds, surely they are 5/6 in Yr 1) they have not changed and by Year 3 onwards, it has caused a whole heap of trouble. Most recently I have seen them being quite nasty to some of the quieter or nicer girls.

I think sometimes parents think it's a good idea to encourage confidence and don't actually see that this needs to be tempered with politeness or consideration, or perhaps it doesn't, because contrary to what everyone says on here, they are still very popular, get invited to everything and are generally in the middle of the social mix. Whether this is because they are fun to be around or because the other girls realise they had better toe the line, it's hard to judge, some of them can be entertaining and fun as well.

I have no idea if this is a girl thing as I don't have boys.

[Clawdy]

Why are people talking about four year olds? There are no four year olds in any Year One class, they will all be five or six.

[Mactomac]

But children leave other children out sometimes, that's just part of playground silliness. Remember these 'endless tales' you're hearing are also coming from 5/6 year old children! It could be that there is a bit of jealousy towards these girls, or any number of possible reasons. For you to be so disparaging about them without first hand experience isn't really on and does come across as sour grapes and/or unjustified judging. All children can be thoughtless and unkind sometimes, it shouldn't define them nor should they be judged for being anything other than normal kids.