...to think these girls aren't 'strong-willed', they're just a nightmare?

[Jhm9rhs]

In my DS' year (Y1) there is a core of 3-4 girls who are 'the popular girls'. Frankly, I thank my lucky stars that I have sons, because they don't really notice these girls. But they do have lots of little girl friends and I hear endless tales of this little clique...the girls themselves desperate to belong, and their mothers telling stories of bullying, manipulation, exclusion, bribery etc.

Tonight I have been shocked to witness an almost self-congratulatory thread on FB between three of these girls' mothers, joking about how hard it is to parent 'naturally strong-willed and feisty' girls, but really full of pride about what one called 'their alpha girls'.

I wanted to step in and say 'actually, they aren't strong-willed, they're incredibly spoilt and entitled and could do with a few lessons on kindness'. Naturally I didn't.

Then I started to wonder if, in fact, these women are well aware of how mean their children can be, but are so relieved they're not being bullied that they just ignore it

AIBU? Are some kids just born like this?

[Strawberryade]

In my experience, children that behave like this have parents who behaved that way too as children and who as adults are still bullies.

There is a girl in DD's year who has been like that since reception. She is now year 6 and is still like it.

The mum describes her as 'an alpha female'

I was at school with the mum. The mum was, and still is like it now...

[Sallyhasleftthebuilding]

Id agree, there isnt a massive changr in behaviour over the years. However, high school will be problematic for these kids and first impressions do last. I only hope thay my children have the sence to avoid these drama lamas, and make nice solid friendships with lind considerate children. The rest will be avoided, much easier in high school than juniours.

[Screaminlikeabanshee]

What really sets my teeth on edge is when people describe their DD as a 'diva'. Translates as 'spoilt entitled rude brat', THAT is nothing to be proud of!

[Mehitabel6]

It is 'alpha' anything that sets my teeth on edge- they are merely people like everyone else.

[Schubertlemons]

Mussolini and Hitler were 5 year olds once, as were many other 'alpha' males.

I am another one who sees the OP's post as unpleasantly sexist and I expect that her sons are picking up on this and will grow up to adopt the same anti female attitudes as their mother.

OK, so there are a few unpleasant children in the class, who happen to be girls, but they are 5 years old FFS; you make them sound like members of the mafia!

[MerryMarigold]

So, I am kind of in support of you OP. I have a ds who grew up with a group of 2 friends all through toddler groups/ nursery. In Reception, this group grew to include a few more boys, and my boy, who was not as 'clever' was quite severely emotionally bullied and excluded. He changed almost overnight. I didn't see it all at the time, it came in dribs and drabs. The parents were actually lovely, and now these boys are 9/10 they have actually become lovely kids too. However, I think this is because their parents aren't the types to brag about how great it is is that their kids are clever, and emotionally more mature, and use that to be unkind. If I had seen something like you have seen on FB, I would be livid. They have no idea how damaging it is to the kids on the receiving end of it. I know my ds1 is particularly sensitive and was particularly damaged but it has taken years and years and years for him to get over the 2 years of bullying/ exclusion in Yr and Y1 and he can still be affected if he spends time with any of them. I have 3 kids and have not seen this dynamic in my other children's classes so I think it is fairly rare, but clearly it is possible. And to be honest, if I hadn't experienced it firsthand I would be all over the OP too

So in summary:

I agree they are 5 and not yet learned to be kinder/ empathetic and socially more appropriate so they need a bit of slack/ not labelling.
They are probably clever so the bullying is not physical, more emotional, harder for schools or children to identify or deal with
They will probably never learn if their parents are so proud of this side of them - the FB comments were not good.
It IS very damaging to the children around them if it is not controlled better

My advice to any parents with children suffering would be to move classes or even schools as the long term damage to self esteem is pretty irreparable in these early, formative years.

[Sallyhasleftthebuilding]

Merry, I could have wrote that. Its not rare, its sadly very common.

[HaydeeofMonteCristo]

The word alpha annoys me too. I don't think we should classify people like that.

I agree re the mums. DD has a friend who can be a bit groupie/ exclusive-y and I found her mum the same to be friends with as an adult. Have gone back to just viewing her as another mum and not as my friend.

I would describe DS (21months) as strong-willed, because of the way he behaves with me (I.e. toddler behaviour- I won't have my coat on, I must climb on the furniture, how dare you not give me the knives etc.) I wouldn't describe kids who were unkind to others with this term. II would say they were being unkind.

[gandalf456]

Some children are a nightmare full stop at that age and then grow into nice, reasonable human beings. However, I do remember looking at children's behaviour around friends and then the parents and seeing where they got it from. They get it from somewhere.

[sparklesandglitterx]

Aw they are only five

Although their mothers sound like twats

[pinechesterdrawers]

yes, they are small but you've got to nip it in the bud!

i definitely think parents aren't pulling their children up on unpleasantness etc as they dont want their child to be the one who doesnt have the upper hand.

ive seen this myself and was really annoyed with the parent who just sat there and didnt intervene at all.

Another child was bolstering themselves up by trying say my dc's thing wasnt as good as theirs etc but it continued in different phrases for 20 minutes.

luckily my dc ignored it and didnt bite to the provocation!

[Lachattequrit]

I think YABVU. 5 year olds aren't always kind. That doesn't mean they are going to grow up to be bullies or failures in life
The tone of the OP is very anti-girl. And actually, apart from the alpha female comment, which is a bit twatty, what is wrong with mums describing their daughters as strong-willed or feisty. Would you be happy if they'd said it's hard to raise entitled, nasty little brats?
You sound nasty tbh.

[SuckingEggs]

This post is very anti-girl.

My question is: why the heck are you friends with these people?!

[ShortcutButton]

what I have learnt, is that it can all change tomorrow. And your own child might be the one being mean

They are still tiny kids, just learning how to behave

[HotterWok]

What if a 5 year old boy was hitting another boy and the Dads were boasting about their little alpha male? Would you say aww he's only 5 and stop being so anti-boy?

[HotterWok]

"The whole 'what if it was a boy/man' response on MN is tedious."

Having lower standards for women is sexist, this is merely an attempt to level the playing field so that girls can be as successful as boys in the future.

[MerryMarigold]

I'm not sure I really understand why the post is anti girl, other than girls are involved. My post was about boys, so it is anti-boy?

I think the point is that whilst it is developmental and they are young, it does also need dealing with rather than ignoring as 'just a phase' or worse, gloating about the kids' 'character'.

It is extremely damaging to those on the receiving end and should be taken seriously, not people jumping all over the OP for rightly identifying a problem.

[gandalf456]

I agree and I do think boys and girls play slightly differently which I've seen for myself having one of each that's not to say boys don't have their own problems

[tobysmum77]

It sounds like the girls are modeling parents behaviour. Bit like my friend's dd's class where some of the mums are just crazy and the girls' relationships are complicated. They started calling each other fat etc in reception. Another friend of mine says she's glad she has a boy so she can stay out of it, personally I'm very glad my dd is not at that school!

[MerryMarigold]

Toby, boys can be just as bad. Kids in YR tie up party invitation from my ds under his nose, laughed his babyish drawings, blocked his way to go places, and took the mick out of a perfectly nice scarf. That was just the stuff I saw! They were all 4-5 years old.

[MerryMarigold]

Sorry tore up the invitation. That was his ' best' friend.

[maggieryan]

Are you friends with their mothers on fb? Why? Second of all they're 5 and thirdly don't generalise, just because you have boys don't be thanking your lucky stars, as a mother of both sex I can tell you boys can be just as bad.