...to think these girls aren't 'strong-willed', they're just a nightmare?

[Jhm9rhs]

In my DS' year (Y1) there is a core of 3-4 girls who are 'the popular girls'. Frankly, I thank my lucky stars that I have sons, because they don't really notice these girls. But they do have lots of little girl friends and I hear endless tales of this little clique...the girls themselves desperate to belong, and their mothers telling stories of bullying, manipulation, exclusion, bribery etc.

Tonight I have been shocked to witness an almost self-congratulatory thread on FB between three of these girls' mothers, joking about how hard it is to parent 'naturally strong-willed and feisty' girls, but really full of pride about what one called 'their alpha girls'.

I wanted to step in and say 'actually, they aren't strong-willed, they're incredibly spoilt and entitled and could do with a few lessons on kindness'. Naturally I didn't.

Then I started to wonder if, in fact, these women are well aware of how mean their children can be, but are so relieved they're not being bullied that they just ignore it

AIBU? Are some kids just born like this?

HP that sounds very similar.

And yes, no one is 4 in this situation.

IMHO. Ynbu and think you've been jumped on a bit unnecessary tbh, but this is aibu after all and this site is world wide in which we all have different opinion cultures and beliefs and fantastic that we do. Imagine what a boring world it would be if all went around saying "Yes Yes, I agree". What would we learn. !
From what you're telling me. It does sound like they are bullies, And yes there is and can be bullying at a young age and kids can be so cruel. And tbph their mothers seem to be proud of that fact going from the our alpha girls comments.

The alpha girls comment is worrying - implying everyone else is a beta.

4 yr old nursery child spends 20 min pushing barely walking toddler, another 4 & 3 yr olds out of her way as they all used the castle turret style slide. I swap with parent to supervise, I start bodily blocking the pusher forcing them to take turns properly. When the pusher has their turn it turns out the Mother has been stood at the bottom watching all this and says to me in a cutesy voice with a huge grin on her face, 'Awwww, she's such a little bully'. WTF! The smile quickly disappeared from her face when I angerly replied yes she is isn't she. Stupid woman.
Don't even get me started on my DS's cousin. She has been allowed to attack my DC since she could toddle towards them, DS2 wasn't even crawling at that point. The denial of what is happening literally right under B/SIL's noses is unbelievable. I have no idea what they think is going on, but it has hit crisis point and our next trip is going to be messy. I've given them years to sort it out and it's escalating.
Very odd behavior from the parents, passing it on to the next generation.
Sounds like the school are not doing their job in your case.

Forgot, YANBU, except nightmare parents, not children.

There were two girls like this in dd's class. One has grown into a perfectly nice girl, the other hasn't.

I am very interested in all these different views.

I would be very surprised if this particular group of children start to be avoided due to their behaviour. Depressingly, I have a vague feeling it will be the same situation when they're 15....just more unkind. I hope to be proven wrong though!

Senpai I accept you may well be much better educated on this subject than I. Personally I feel I've seen many children of 5 and 6 exhibit genuine empathy, obviously not at an adult level but not in a simple 'following the rules' way either. I might have misinterpreted it, as I say, I'm not an expert.

10/10 posts on here are me talking out my ass from what I read on the internet.

Empathy is a tricky to explain and why kids don't have it.

My toddler is very loving, and she is kind towards other children. But she is not empathetic. She will wait her turn and give hugs if she sees a child cry. That is how she has been taught by how I model behavior, scold, and reward. But she will also pinch other children and say "Ow" without understanding that if it hurts you shouldn't do it in the first place. Her reaction when they say "Ow!" for real is a basically a "IKR!?". The most she can understand at this point is that pinching gets her removed from the soft play area for a few minutes, so let's not do it.

But these kids are 5-6. Which means, they understand not to be mean in a "I probably wouldn't like it" sort of way, but it's still very centered around them and what they are feeling. It's not a "Oh, being mean to a kid makes them enjoy school less and no one should ever feel like that".

What I'm getting at is.. These girls aren't being mean in the way older children are to deliberately make another person feel bad because they get satisfaction from it in some way. They're being mean in a purely impersonal, self-centered they want to get their way or a reaction from the other child.

Same here DD moved achools, new class in lovely, previous class full of these types of girls, all falling in and out drama lamas, now at 5 kids having to leave that class ... work out which school sorts kids out.

Giving up on a change of behaviour at six is a little pessimistic. But time will tell. Children can change a lot and in a very short space of time. At least you only need observe as a bystander.

Senpai that makes sense, thanks.

Sally, I'm glad your DD is happier now xx

3-4 girls in a class of 30 so even if you accept the flawed premise that girls can only play with girls another at least 10 girls to play with.
How could 3-4 girls control a whole class??

My DD is a sensitive little wallflower. She has found the other 3-4 sensitive little wallflower kids to play fairy houses happily with. She learnt in reception which DC would scribble on her picture if it was better than theirs and which would cry to the teacher if she didn't play their game and from then on she just avoided them.

DD hasn't got the confidence to shout or bribe or overtly be controlling but if I watch her carefully she has her strategies to get her own way. They all do. It's just some strategies are more and less pleasant than others. They are learning about social relationships and if a strategy works and is rewarded they may continue it.

Eg DS in reception has worked out that if you clown around and make 'em laugh other kids love it. He is the master of the comedy prat fall. I am not sure if this is a good strategy long term but with fellow 4 yr olds it seems it's a sure fire winner.

Stropping off in tears usually doesn't work. Bribery might do if you have something others want. Blackmail and threats don't work for very long. Far better to learn how to compromise or make your ideas attractive to others so they'll want to play with you. When you are 5 or 6 you are just working this out and often you may get it wrong.

ghnocci that was a shocking programme I thought - it was horrible the way the girls ostacised the little girl in such a calculated way. I also felt a bit sorry for her when she was told off for doing something back, but they hadn't been told off (can't remember the details). Horrible

You reep what you sow.

Pity these woman, when they reach their teens -

I can remember this age when my DS was young. From the age of about 3 to 5, I impressed on him the importance of being kind, sharing and thinking about the other children he was playing with. I was particularly concerned about so doing as he was an only child and didn't want him to behave like a spoilt brat.

Unfortunately when he started playgroup/nursery I quickly realised that the majority of other children hadn't been taught in this way and didn't want to play fair. How naive of me! I quickly had to change my ways and encourage him to be more assertive about his own needs to avoid being pushed around by other children.

Funnily enough his kindness towards others always shone through and he was actually quite popular and tended to stick-up for the underdog and people who were bullied by the 'alphas'.

I don't think this sort of behaviour is anything to do with the sex/gender of the DC. Manipulative behaviour and excluding others happens just as frequently with boys as it does girls. It just tends to just be more subtle/different as some girls are more vocally skilled at this age.

Don't conflate being strong willed with being horrid, my dd used being strong willed to be kind. She is quiet, but confident in knowing the difference between right and wrong, and prepared to help others.

Of course the parents are the biggest influence on a small child. They have learnt everything they know from you by the time they start school.

If you smack don't be surprised if your child hits out at others
If you shout then they will learn that shouting is how to exert your will
If you bribe them to get them to behave then they will try to do that to others
If you say 'that makes mummy so sad when you do that' then I guess that would encourage them more down the 'if I cry and whine other children will respond'

My own major downfall is sarcasm and I am now starting to reap what I sowed with sarcastic backchat and eye rolling. I have only myself to blame.

On a slightly more positive note I do a lot of ignoring of bad behaviour and praising good and I hope that has helped them a bit. DD seems to have learnt that a good way to influence others is to talk up your idea to make it sound very exciting and she can compromise quite well and I hope I have modelled that for her. She walks away from conflict so maybe that is a kind of ignoring.
I do like to make a joke out of stuff too so maybe DS got the comedy prat fall idea from me too.

But it's already stuff like 'if you rip X's picture, you can play with us at lunchtime '

Well, I'd say this is worrying and a bit scary from children of this age, no wonder the poor wee girl they're targeting doesn't want to go to school now.

Absolutely agree the root of the problem lies with the parents, not the girls themselves. But I don't think this is normal behaviour from children of that age, have never come across it myself anyway.

First, these little girls are acting like bullies. Telling another kid to tear up another child's paper and they'll play with her. wtf?

They're little, they don't know better - but their mums encourage the bullying and brag about it. That's the real problem.

Sounds like the school are not doing their job.

This isn't "strong-willed". It's not girls being assertive. Threatening other kids isn't proof of advanced verbal skills. This is children being taught to be mean and nasty. Same as some kids are taught at home to be racist.

Have you made your concerns known to the school? Just because it's girls being targeted, not your son, it's still a legitimate concern.

Who refers to their little girl as an alpha? Wtf!!

I've seen this happen, too. Took dd1 until then end of Y2 to stop trying to please and be friends with the ringleader and find a friend (a boy, as it happened) to play with instead. Before that, break times were miserable for her. Now she is beginning to play again, rather than hide with a book, but it's been quite a long journey and with support from me and the school.

I thought it was just personalities, but having observed the ringleader in the (public) playground I could see that any aggression was ignored by her mum (and there was quite a lot) but tears immediately got attention. This chimes with what dd1 says happens at school - aggression and bossing around, then tears and getting her friends to tell the teacher that X was mean to her, if X dares to argue or push back. This year they have a more experienced teacher, who seems wise to it. The previous two years (NQTs) didn't deal with it so well.

unfollow them

job done!

alpha girls - yuk.

It's not the kids' fault - they are just kids, but the mums sound awful. Unfortunately you see this a lot with both girls and boys, the child is aggressive or overbearing or even may be hitting and pushing and the parents are really pleased because their child can 'stick up for him/ her self'. They are terrified of having the kid who gets picked on.

We can debate forever whether this sort of behaviour is normal in this age group, but it's the attitude of the facebook mums that gives me most cause for concern. I've done my level best to teach my children (girls and boys) that without turning themselves into doormats they need to be kind and considerate towards the feelings of others and it doesn't sit well with me that these women are using the strong willed, feisty and alpha girls label as an excuse for bullying. Little children can be all of these things. but they can still be told that their behaviour is unacceptable and causing others to feel upset.

A teacher once said to me that he had no major problem with children behaving badly and pushing boundaries as this was how they learnt what was acceptable behaviour and what wasn't, but that it was how they acted when they told to stop that determined what happened next. If these girls are not being told that how they are behaving is causing upset for others they will never know and they will just carry on being unkind.

In my view 4/5 year olds are perfectly capable of understanding what is and isn't acceptable behaviour towards others and these girls should be having it spelt out to them that what they are doing is unacceptable. When I notice my children being unkind I always ask the question 'how would you feel if someone did this to you'. These mums should be doing the same, not boasting on facebook

3-4 girls in a class of 30 so even if you accept the flawed premise that girls can only play with girls another at least 10 girls to play with.
How could 3-4 girls control a whole class??

This is my dd2's class- there are only 10 girls in it and 20 boys (why I don't know) and there are a few very dominant girls who definitely rule who can be friends with who and who can't. As you say, a couple of girls have simply withdrawn and either play by themselves or with each other. The rest are 'in' or 'out' depending on the factions at any one time. It is also interesting that they have turned on each other at times as well.

It may be these girls are very young and it will all change, but this type of set-up was common in my secondary school. If you ask your child who are the popular ones, or more neutrally, how do friendships work in your class, then they will be able to draw you a map of the social relations (mine can, anyway).

All you can do in the face of it is ignore FB completely, encourage your children to find their niche or one or two nice friends and carry on!