To think that actually dsd should know the consequences of her decision?

[Cloudybutwarm]

Yes I'm braving aibu for a step related issue....

Dsd is 10.5.

On Saturday, as in 6 days time, we are due to be flying to Florida, her, me, Dh and our two boys, 4 and 1. This was booked and paid for months ago.

Yesterday we had a text from her mum to say that dsd has decided she doesn't want to come as she doesn't want to be away from her mum for so long. In the run up to the holiday she has said a few times she was going to really miss her mum, but she is spent far more time talking about how much she's looking forward to it. We have an ongoing thing with her not liking to be away from her mum so Dh had a few conversations with her about it before we booked and she was adamant she'd be fine.

We have taken her on holiday before, and yes she missed her mum and there was the odd tear but overall she was fine and loved the holiday.

So now with less than a week to go we are probably £1k down, have a heartbroken 4 year old who idolises his big sister and doesn't understand why she won't be coming any more and of course a completely gutted Dh.

There is obviously no point in insisting that she comes as that would probably end up making for a miserable holiday for everyone.

Her mum said to Dh please don't be angry with her, she's really upset. Dh is torn between being angry and feeling that he shouldn't be angry with her. I personally think that 10 is obviously a tricky age as she's still a child and yet not a young child.... And therefore I do think that while it's not like we need to be cross and shouty she does need to understand what she's done, that it's cost us a lot of money and that both her dad and brother are very upset. I think she is certainly old enough to be made to see there are consequences for makings decisions like this right at the last moment.

So as not to drip feed, it came to light last week that she's been experiencing some low level bullying at school which has obviously been upsetting her, I must admit that I struggle to see that she wouldn't then prefer to go to Disney for two weeks rather than be in school but there we go....

So basically aibu to think that in these circumstances actually it's ok to be a bit angry and to spell out to dsd the consequences of her actions?

YANBU to be disappointed and a bit frustrated with the situation. It's not fun to have a disappointed little one and it's also hard to see people you love upset.

However, in your position I would be pretty annoyed with my DH - telling his DD before discussing it with her mother (or you) was a foolish thing to do and may have made her mother feel her hand was forced. Reading your replies, I know you get that. I also wonder if DSD's mum thought this might happen and that is why she didn't veto it.

However, YWBU to try and lay on a guilt-trip. Fair enough for your DH to say "I'm sorry that you won't be coming, we would all love you to come and we'll really miss you if you don't come" or something similar. I agree children need to learn their actions have consequences- for her this will mean missing out on a holiday, spending time with her dad and brother and having to listen to your DS talking about the fun he has had etc.

But to sit her down and tell she's wasted x amount of money, that you are angry with her, it's all her fault her little brother and her dad is going to be sad and that you certainly won't be inviting her on holiday again etc would be, IMHO, a big mistake. It is likely to damage your relationship with her by making her feel insecure in her relationship with you all. Remember, she is only 10. And a 10 year old who sounds like she's going through a tough time at school, may be worried about missing school/friends and also sounds like may be an anxious little girl as it is.

Agree with a PP poster who said it pretty grim that you/your DH (I'm unclear which) would want to make her feel worse than she probably does (her mum's "don't be cross with her" makes me think that DSD is worried about this).

As for posters saying "just make her go"- really? Likely be counterproductive and not sure forcing her to go would make for a fun holiday. Also don't think I could bring myself to force a child to that. I'm not usually soft on children and agree they do have to do as they are told, but I just don't see this ending well.

In summary OP- fair enough to be exasperated and cross at the situation, not fair to try and guilt trip a little girl. She is a child who cannot and should not be expected to process adult emotions. Agree, I would not shield her from the consequences of her decision- i.e. missing out on lots of fun, having to listen to her little brother talking about all the fun he had etc. There is a difference in approach between not shielding her from the consequences and sitting her down so that you can tell her exactly how much trouble she has caused and how angry you are and how unfair on her father and brother that is.

keep
yes i agree with you completely!

As for her going through a seperation, no the dsd hasn't she never knew her parents together.

Also Loving the whole op must have money so she can afford to lose a grand
How about they saved and saved for the trip??
Love the assumption op and dh must be loaded do can just write it off like it doesn't mean anything.

Op i'm remembering your other threads now and i do think the mother may have played a part in this.
Yes your dh didn't go about it the right way but i don't think he is manipulative.

super your posts are just nasty.
It's clear the op cares, she isn't a bitch nor an evil stepmom.
Amazingly as a child i was able to go away and miss parents birthdays and not be traumatised.
So could my separated friends, so i think i'll trust what the op says.

Dh and I were talking more about this last night. I think one of the hardest elements for him is the fact that even 2 weeks in Disney with daddy is still not preferable to two weeks at home with mum.

We know, of course we know that she is far closer to her mum, and happier at home. It's usually how it is with separated parents and is only natural. Especially when, as in our case, Dh ha never lived with her. But of course that doesn't make it easier for the second best parent who loves his child just as much. He has to do 16 hours of driving on the weekends we have her, and knowing that deep down she's probably rather stay at home doesn't help!

Still, Dh is being stoic and is adamant he is still looking forward to the holiday and we will still have a great time.

I really hope you have a fantastic holiday OP!

Surely it is disingenuous to state that just because it could be done more cheaply with five to a hotel room, that it is therefore impossible that the op spent £1k. I would actually be wondering whether they would have gone to Disney world at all with just a 4yo and baby (sorry if the ages are wrong) or whether they would have waited until both the other children were old enough to enjoy it?

The money is probably a red herring really. Obviously it matters and is irritating, but really I think the worst thing is knowing that she doesn't want to spend this time with us, even doing something like Disney at Christmas
And obviously as adults we will have to try and pretend it doesn't matter, but it does, and it is hurtful, especially for Dh and for ds1 who probably loves her more than he loves me! (Although we have told ds that she is not well, not that she doesn't want to come)

Is Dsd spending time with you over christmas itself? That is something to look forward to spending time all together.

Sorry if I derailed thread to money, I realise it is not about the money. My previous posts did have some ideas like reselling tickets/reclaiming tax on flight which were designed to help.

I'm a great believer in the teenage brain theory: this says that the teenage brain goes through a big growth spurt which the mind has trouble keeping up with. This is why teenagers tend to be such volatile, unpredictable bundles of emotion. Just like that other, expansive/explosive time in their life - when they are toddlers.
The theory explains why teenagers tend to do stupid things; it's because their minds have not yet learned to join up all the dots, not yet learned that actions have consequences. They have to be taught how to think rationally.
So I would approach this with DSD as not telling her the consequences of her actions but talking it through with her and directing the conversation so that she works out the consequences for herself. eg if you invited a friend for a sleepover and they agreed and then cancelled how would you feel? would you forgive her and invite again? if she repeatedly cancelled, how many chances would you give her? wouldn't you feel better if she was honest and said 'no' from the start? how do you cope when you have two friends pulling in opposite directions - which one do you please and which one do you disappoint - how do you resolve the dilemma? etc etc

I think that OP's gut instinct is right: that DSD is getting to the age where she has to start the path to behaving like an adolescent, she is past the infant stage.

But don't do angry. Do 'I am disappointed in you'.

No she isn't dixie. She came to us last Christmas (at her own request as we don't have a particular arrangement for alternating) and then got too upset at being away from home for Christmas so Dh spent 8 hours on Boxing Day taking her home early. So she will be at home for Christmas this year (and probably every year!)

I don't think we will see her until after Christmas now!

So your DH wants to take your DSD on holiday to a certain place at a certain time ignoring:

1. The law
2. Your wishes and predictions
3. The child's mother's wishes
4. The child's wishes

He may have gotten everything "agreed" by only by a combination of manipulation and riding a bit roughshod over other people's feelings when it suited him.

And the justification for this is that he feels a bit bad that child is closer to her mother than to him? Well, yes. That must be a little bit tough emotionally. But he is going to have to find a better way of dealing with those emotions. Because making a little girl cope with the guilt of being caught between two parents isn't going to end up somewhere good.

Absent abuse or other special circumstances, 10 year olds don't get to decide whether they have contact with their NRP. Her relationship with her dad as important as her relationship with her mum, and this includes holidays. She should be told that she is going (with empathy and kindness, but she still goes). No holidays at all? That's a recipe for distancing her from her dad to her own detriment. He is her parent too and she needs to feel close to him too, which she will only get from spending time with him.

I must admit I think the mom is obviously a very self indulgent parent, she may not consciously admit to it but she isn't helping this situation at all, she could help if she wanted to!

So, Cloudybutwarm at Christmas all the adults side step responsibility for making sure Christmas is properly planned, the child has to take that on, and then when she gets it "wrong" by the adults's standards she is then punished with "no more Xmas's with Dad" because she "wasted" 8hrs of her dad's time. Did she have any choice in the fact that her mum and dad live 4 hours apart? Or did she just have to suck that one up?

And now you're also having a good wallow about the fact that your son loves DSD more than he loves you? And being very happy to push that negative feeling onto her. And her dad is very happy to be more concerned about the fact that his daughter is closer to her mum, than with his daughter's emotional wellbeing (and physical wellbeing if bullying is involved).

This makes me so angry. A little girl is being punished for her parents' decisions, and has to be the adult, making the decisions about what she is going to do and where she is going to go, and gets roundly punished when she doesn't manage to keep a bunch of frankly, selfish and immature adults happy at every turn.

The adults in this situation are supposed to be looking out for the child and protecting the child from this type of emotional mess. Not the other way round.

You all need to grow a spine and not make the little girl responsible for the emotional wellbeing of (at least) 3 adults. It's be a lot easier if 3/4 adults share responsibility for her emotional wellbeing than if one little person has to take responsibility for all those supposedly grown ones.

And by the way, it's not ok to push the blame onto other adults in the situation either "oh, we don't think her mum helps". Why should her mum help you take her daughter on a holiday illegally, against her own wishes and the child's expressed wishes? Have reasonable expectations and make reasonable requests then expect help and support in carrying them out.

No wonder your son loves his step sister so much. She's probably the only person he's around with any real idea of how to take other people's feelings into account by the sounds of it.

I'm starting to see why the Americans allow kids to divorce their parents.

Op, I can completely see why it is so hurtful.

Sorry for also focusing on the money- I would try and recover what you can as Dixie suggested and then forget about it. I imagine the £1k is kind of an adding insult to injury thing in this situation

Oh bobble cat I disagree with nearly all of what you said in that post.

We don't know why the parents live that far apart, but they do, it happens, you can deal with it. The girl has been given choices she doesn't want to be apart from mom- why? Her mom and dad need to talk to her about this. She is nearly in secondary school she cannot be allowed to dictate what her parents do, she doesn't want to go away on holiday for two weeks, fine, but it isn't fine to not speak about this again and forget about it.

The OP is asking for advice, not to be insulted by strangers, how is that helpful?

I don't think the holiday should have been booked in term time but that's by the by now, it's booked. What needs to be dealt with now is the girls anxieties. Mum needs to reassure her that she will be fine when dd isn't there, and she needs to support the need to be with dad, who is just as important as mom. Mom also needs to understand face timing four times a day and saying "I miss you" "how much do you miss me?" Is completely self indulgent. This isn't about either parent, it's about the child, I agree with you on that. There is a bigger issue that needs to be sorted out (DD's anxiety) and being a cow to the OP is just childish and unnecessary.

I don't know if it has been mentioned, but I have a quite clingy 10 year old who would be mortified if she was taken out of school for two weeks, as they lay it on thick about the SATS from Year 5 onwards. This girl may be extremely stressed about doing something 'wrong' from the school's point of view and getting into trouble/parents fined as well as anxious about leaving the school.

If it were in holiday time, and only for a week, putting your foot down might be slightly more reasonable- in that it's reasonable for a child to spend a week with the NRP in the holidays. I suspect the stress of two weeks and the 'wrongness' of going away in term time is just playing on her mind and I suspect lots of tears will have been shed to date over this trip on her part.

What a shame, everyone intended for a lovely thing to happen but I think now all that you can do is try to keep relationships as good as possible and don't allow a blinking Disney holiday to come between you all.

Bobble cat that all seems unduly harsh. I don't think anyone is punishing the DSD. It sounds like OP is assuming she won't be coming for Xmas or holidays based on what her mother and the DSD have decided, not that she is banning her from coming

Fuck off button.

You've made everything out of nothing there.

Dsd has always wanted to be at home for Christmas. Her mum has always wanted her to be at home. We've always accepted her wishes on that. We were thrilled when she asked to come to us last year and disappointed that she wanted to go home early.

The comment about how much ds loves his sister was a joke, ever heard of that? He adores her yes, and I think that's great.

Dh isn't 'concerned' about dsd loving her mum more, it's just how it is. He is fully acceptant of that, doesn't make it easy for him though.

As for all this twaddle about going against dsds wishes - she was desperate to come on holiday with us. She's spent the whole year going on about it and saying how excited she was with the occasional worry about missing mum. That's hardly going against her wishes. And now she's decided not to come at the last minute. And we've said that of course we're not going to try and force her to go - so how exactly are we going against her wishes?

So you think what, dsd should divorce her dad and us? Because we wanted to take on her holiday and are disappointed she's decided not to come? So shoot me, how awful we are.

Do you mean fuck off bobblecat? I was sticking up for you!

I've been that child and it's tough. I did have massive anxiety issues though so I may not be the best example!

I went on one holiday with my father and siblings (younger) when I was 15 against my will and it was horrific. I refused to go ever again - even when they went to exotic places. I don't regret that even now.

It doesn't sound like she's being selfish or naughty (for want of a better word!) it sounds like she genuinely can't cope with the time and distance away from her mum. Whatever the rights and wrongs of the situation, that's the reality.

It's sad but the holiday isn't going to happen as planned. I totally understand your irritation and actually I think you're being very diplomatic and gracious about it considering you picked it from the start. But, really, DH was never going to do anything else was he? Understandably of course, he was always going to push to include DSD.

I think the irritation will lessen over time, it's obviously very raw now, and possibly the best thing to do is just look at the holiday from a new perspective and enjoy it!

Oh and to pp getting worked up about taking a ten year old out of school for two weeks to go to Disney - really??? Children are taken out of school at DDs school the whole time for days and weeks. No one bats an eyelid; travel and culture are seen as valuable. And yes, I include Disney in that!!

OP - have a great time

That's very harsh bobble The OP said "She came to us last Christmas (at her own request) and then got too upset at being away from home for Christmas so DH spent 8 hours on Boxing Day taking her home early."

No one forced her to go to Dad's for Xmas, it was her idea. Then she changed her mind and ruined Boxing Day for Dad, step mum and step siblings. She can't keep doing that, it's self-centred.
Just because you are in a less-than-ideal situation (parents separated), it doesn't give you the right to behave badly.

Rubbish Cloudy, you're looking at it from everyone's perspective but the little girl's.

Senua I don't think she did behave badly. She was left to make a difficult choice. She messed it up a little bit, at age 9. Then everyone else made a big fuss about her "ruining" the day.

There are lots of selfish people in the situation, but it's not the little girl.

Typical of MN to focus on the most irrelevant aspect of the whole thread, a term-time holiday.

People saying the money doesn't matter aren't thinking this through. When we book somewhere for us all to go on holiday, it totally changes the cost/what we can book. Instead of a 2 bedroom apartment, it's a 3 or 4 bedroom apartment. We chose a different place based on what the DSDs will like (as they're older), we plan around events or activities which will suit them all. It's not 'money we would have spent anyway'. It's double the cost, for a holiday that we wouldn't have chosen if we'd known they would cancel.

My DSDs mum regularly takes them on holidays/weekends away, at least once a year this is during term-time (which my DH doesn't agree with). She takes them abroad too. My DH doesn't get consulted about it in any way, he gets told that he will miss his time with them because they'll be away. Done deal.

Re comments about 'dragging a crying child onto a plane', is that really what a 10 year-old is likely to do? It's more likely that if it was presented as non-negotiable, they might sulk a bit, then actually enjoy themselves once they got there. A 10 year-old doesn't generally have a big toddler tantrum/have to be 'dragged' somewhere, they just do 'moody' until they see it's not working.