to think Mumsnet should delete posts in which women are called cis

[violetsarentblue]

I (and I imagine quite a lot of women on here) are fed up with being referred to as cis. I find the term deeply insulting.
I'm a woman and prefer to be addressed as a 'woman', not a cis woman.

I noticed MN are quick to delete posts where transgender people are called 'he' instead of 'she', because that group of people find the term insulting and MN don't want to offend.

Generally we delete posts in which people persistently refuse to refer to people by the pronoun (he/she; him/her) by which they’ve asked to be referred, out of respect for that individual’s wishes.

Please - could we have the same depth of consideration for our wishes?

Thank you.

Yes, ouryve, having grown up with a brother who has autism I am aware people with autism are normal people. I don't need you to try and explain that to me.

Autism though, if we talk about things that are common across the population, is not the norm. It simply isn't - most people don't have it. So we need a word to differentiate between autistic/non autistic (and you can't use normal as it has all sorts of connotations), so we use neurotypical.
Not all the time, obviously, but just to differentiate.

Idiots using cis as a derogatory word, well you get idiots everywhere. Especially on the internet. But it is still a useful word.
Any clearer on the point I was making now?

Woman is a useful word.

Also, what Lock said. It's not the labelling - I'm white, I'm straight, I've got no problem with these labels. Cis affirms social gender and gender expectations, which keep women subjugated. I reject gender expectations, so cis is meaningless.

I really don't understand why people find this insulting.

You're still a woman. Saying you're a cis-gendered woman is to make a comparison, or to acknowledge privilege. In the same way as my DP might say something like 'obviously I'm coming at his as a white heterosexual middle class man' in a conversation about discrimination, because, well, he is all those things. And acknowledges that they can make him blind to certain experiences others face - like me, as a woman.

I guess he should probably start throwing in cis-gendered as well.

Personally, I don't object to it, it's just a way of saying I haven't had to struggle with gender identity - and it isnt just about trans people, there are those who are asexual, for example.

The weird view that trans acceptance is negative for women is one I just don't. I don't care who people love, or how they choose to express their sexuality or their gender identity. I want them to have their rights protected regardless. I have had certain specific challenges as a woman, but they will be different to those faced by gay women, or by those who are trans or otherwise feel their sex doesn't match their gender. In conversations about these things, it's useful to have a shorthand to recognise that.

New terms bring clarity. I think people are will fully misinterpreting this one.

There are far more important things in the world to worry about than this, for crying out loud.

Cis does not mean "not trans"
It means 'same side'
and trans means 'opposite sides or from one side to the other'

cis means that you have a biological sex (female, XX, ovaries etc)
AND you have a brain gender identity = (insert stereotype of whatever females are supposed to identify with)
AND they match (are on the same side)

For those of us that don't have a brain gender identity and for whom the very idea of a brain gender identity is a damaging stereotype of "this is what women feel, like, do"
calling us cis is an insult. It's saying females have a ladybrain which affects our personalities deeply, matches our sex perfectly and which is totally different from a manbrain.

I have no objection to people claiming cis or trans for themselves. But it's not for me.

I really don't understand why people find this insulting.

It takes a lot to insult me.
But, yep,, I find this insulting.

Possibly it's the sheer arrogance of slapping a made up word onto a word that has been around for hundreds of years, all to appease one group of people.

"Personally, I don't object to it, it's just a way of saying I haven't had to struggle with gender identity" - lucky you

OK but I have. without being trans - without being a transman - I have huge struggles based on the expectations foisted on me by gender roles.

I have no issues at all with describing myself in ways which make plain my privilege (white, middle class, educated, from a stable home, reasonably well off, able bodied, and so on) - I am not in denial about privilege. However, I absolutely reject my assigned gender role as being associated with some essential truth about me; and this has been actively and effectively problematic in my life to the extent that this is not, for me, a theoretical issue.

I am not making grand claims for being personally down trodden - I am not. I have been lucky enough to learn to "pass" in many ways that have let me off many sorts of abuse (though like all women there has been enough abuse: enough humilatino, enough groping, enough intimate violence, enough exploitation at work, and so on) - and all the other privileges I have as listed above cushion me from a lot. I know it and I own it. But I am not cis

I wouldn't be the least bit offended to be called a cis-woman. The occasion hasn't arisen yet, but I can see that in certain contexts it could be a useful clarifier.

But this:
Its like referring to non-autistic people as neurotypical. It's to avoid simply saying normal.
offends me.

Labels, labels everywhere and struggles to accept.
Ouryve, thanks for your posts.
I think a lot of people are quick to make labels and many others to refute them. A lot of people (I believe/hope) don't feel the need as they accept people as they are and go from there. Unfortunately discrimination by some means labels need to be put in place to discuss differences in an attempt to gain fairness and equality.
Silently (I think it was you) I feel a bit saddened that you should say being lesbian should be a medical term (sorry if I have got this completely wrong - correct me immediately), as I feel it is not something that should be viewed as needing medical help. In my life experience being a lesbian is now recognised as completely normal and at last fairly everyday.

My sex at birth was identified as female as I have the physiology you would expect of a female. Can someone tell me what defines my gender as a women? Should I like the colour pink? Wear feminine clothes? Behave demurely? By calling me a cis-women you are labeling me as a specific gender not a sex and I want to know what that is. I don't think it is appropriate that those born another sex and socialized as a different gender get to tell me what my gender is or label me thanks.

What part of MNHQ saying but if it’s applied pointedly to a poster who doesn’t identify as a ciswoman, we would delete that

Is everyone unhappy about?

Maybe not. Read the bullshit links on cissexism. This is a made up political agenda that detracts from real issues being discussed by feminists.

Some transactivists argue even speaking about reproductive rights or FGM is 'cissexism' as it prioritises one group of women's rights over 'every' woman's rights.

It makes my eyes bleed to read some of it.

And think it makes no difference? In Ireland you can't discriminate against a transwoman's desire to use the ladies but it is legal for a health professional to override a woman's right to consent to a medical procedure in label and deny access to abortion. What does that say?

And everything LocktheTaskBar says.

(Labour not label!!!)

I don't think it is appropriate that those born another sex and socialized as a different gender get to tell me what my gender is or label me thanks.

misskelly, those are my thoughts as well. Only I couldn't find the words.

Thank fuck I grew up before all this shit was invented. There were only men, women and gay, one way or another! This is getting ridiculous!

What I am unhappy about (can't speak for everyone) is that it is, and will be, used generally to mean "women who are not trans" and we do not all get a chance individually to dissociate oursleves from this

And it's arrogant and stupid to rename a class without the consent of that class

Pointedly insulting uses to individuals do not cover all cases of effective insult

Why not just ignore it, deleting it gives it credence!

Wow. Reason 13578532 to stay away from the Feminism boards. I'm going to need a bigger notebook.

What a load of shite. Never heard of it. Couldn't care less.

Cis woman is used so us female born women do not have the ownership of the word woman

Well I do as I was born female and for too long women have treated like second class citizens and to feel shame now we are moving away from that being a woman is not shameful

I know when in discussion the word woman is mentioned what is means I also know what is meant by trans woman just it is not always agreed that trans women are real woman but I am so there is no need for cis to be used. I find it an insult as I do not want for myself and other women to once again have to accept what others decide what is right for us

Obviously I live in the 1030s and have never heard this term so have read w interest but isn't the whole idea that a trans woman wants to identify as a woman? If explanations are needed in some context, then they are a trans-woman and once that context is clarified, 'just'a woman. It seems politically pissy and also self defeating to insist on 'normal' women being ciswomen- creating another group to which trans-women can never belong.

And think it makes no difference? In Ireland you can't discriminate against a transwoman's desire to use the ladies but it is legal for a health professional to override a woman's right to consent to a medical procedure in label and deny access to abortion. What does that say?

I fear women's rights are on a slow slide 'backwards'.

This cis business might seem trivial to some and not worth discussing. But, if we don't protest against the small changes, then bigger changes will surely follow.

On that note I'm going to bed.

The problem is in the real world the trans-agenda is gaining more traction than some key feminist campaigns and to then talk about bloody cisprivilege is galling. People need to wake up to this crap...

I am not in favour of deleting though because otherwise no one learns the dangers this represents in how it presents gender as a 'thing in the world' that comes with sex and makes you pretty and pink and fluffy if you have a vagina.