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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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to think Mumsnet should delete posts in which women are called cis

999 replies

violetsarentblue · 17/11/2015 22:21

I (and I imagine quite a lot of women on here) are fed up with being referred to as cis. I find the term deeply insulting.
I'm a woman and prefer to be addressed as a 'woman', not a cis woman.

I noticed MN are quick to delete posts where transgender people are called 'he' instead of 'she', because that group of people find the term insulting and MN don't want to offend.

Generally we delete posts in which people persistently refuse to refer to people by the pronoun (he/she; him/her) by which they’ve asked to be referred, out of respect for that individual’s wishes.

Please - could we have the same depth of consideration for our wishes?

Thank you.

OP posts:
PassiveAgressiveQueen · 24/11/2015 15:58

i thought this was good comment from a friend last night
"women have only just won the right to have a voice in society to be accepted for themself, now they are being told we are changing what you are"

"men don't care about transmen they are used to ignoring women, women are still not used to just ignoring men, and neither are law makers"

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 24/11/2015 15:58

Mythical Harsh but true. I guess that's the whole problem isnt it - transwomen are desperate to be accepted as.women, use womens spaces.etc but the sad fact is that they will only be accepted as.women for as long as they pass, and for most that will be for a short time or not at all. A transwomen simply cannot be a woman, there are just so many tells that you can't alter them all.

MaidOfStars · 24/11/2015 15:58

I find it really difficult to get my head around the idea that a trans woman should be denied access to, say, a female bathroom (with cubicles) because she was male at birth
I completely get you. But....

The first (and main) issue is that some women are using that toilet in the belief that they are in a safe space where they are protected from men and those women may no longer feel that, and thus that facility is "closed" to those women. This is where there is a conflict of rights. Women have historically fought long and hard for safe spaces protected from men, and it's not something that will be given up easily.

"Being male at birth and now identifying as a woman" covers such a broad spectrum of people that the term "transwomen" includes the hypothetical 6ft bearded builder who declares on any given day that he feels like a woman. We can't exclude that person from the term "transwoman" (otherwise we're making a value judgement on how someone looks/acts) so we allow them to use female toilets and changing rooms? In order to preserve equality? This happens at the expense of women's freedom and that is unacceptable.

SlaggyIsland · 24/11/2015 15:59

isshoes transwomen are men. It's a fact. Sorry if facts upset you.

isshoes · 24/11/2015 16:03

isshoes transwomen are men. It's a fact. Sorry if facts upset you

Ha. OK. Your articulate and balanced argument has convinced me. The use of short snappy sentences in particular really helped you get your point across. Hmm

MyFavouriteClintonisGeorge · 24/11/2015 16:08

One bit of the article on the Canadian case jumped out at me: "the decision on this case upholds the right of groups to fight the discrimination they feel, in the manner they see fit, without being expected to take on the burden of other disadvantaged groups... which is the feminist view of transgender issues in a nutshell, isn't it?

Other aspects of the article that were interesting were:

(i) the court finding that the transwoman in question was trying to gain entry into a women-only group 'in order to validate her womanhood'; and

(ii)"Rape Relief's collective belief is that far beyond a person's biological make-up, socialization and experience are what shapes individuals. It's part of their philosophy that women experience the male-dominated world differently than men. That was the 34-year-old organization's original argument for why they should be allowed to exclude men when their women-only policy was first challenged in the 1970s, and they feel it's relevant to whether they should admit transsexual women". The judge "... compared Rape Relief's philosophy to religious conviction and described their beliefs as "articles of faith" meaning "...matters of received or accepted wisdom, intuitively correct and not requiring logical or scientific demonstration for their validity." Yes! This applies to both sides of the debate, it is why biology-based arguments do not supply an answer.

(iii) The law recognizes that drawing distinctions isn't necessarily discrimination, and considers a number of factors such as whether being denied access to an organization or service prevents a complainant "participating in the life of the community." Decisions are made within the context of where the complaint takes place. For example, if there is only one women's group in the community it might be discrimination, but if there are a number of groups serving different interests it may not be".

On the questions in the posts above: Should transwomen..

be forced to use male changing rooms and toilets
Toilets no, changing rooms in the absence of a neutral/communal alternative, usually yes. However, I think the law should allow transpeople-anyone, in fact-to demand such a neutral or communal alternative, on pain of sanctions for the institution involved if it fails to provide them. New buildings should be required to provide such facilities as a matter of course.

be placed in male prisons if given a sentence
No. There must urgently be a safe trans-specific facility provided.

be denied access to all services targeted at women
There is no general answer to this, it should be considered on a case-by-case basis.

be referred to as male in all contexts, and despite their wishes or any distress it causes
No. However, those with genuine good faith beliefs that they are not male should not be accused of bigotry for holding that belief. It is as deserving of respect as the opposite view.

SlaggyIsland · 24/11/2015 16:08

isshoes I'm afraid that I believe, as I've stated on these threads, that gender is a social construct basically designed to fuck over people who are biologically female.
If I subscribe to the idea that we have an innate gender as well as our biological sex, then I subscribe to my own oppression.
Therefore I don't believe that people can be born in the wrong body. I'm sorry for the distress that trans people suffer, but I don't think it's because their bodies are wrong.
As other people stated up-thread, one cannot change one's biological sex. Therefore I fail to see how a man can become a woman. They can simply live expressing their idea of what living as a woman entails, but that's not the same thing.

ShortcutButton · 24/11/2015 16:09

Jesus Christ, its not an arguement. It's not a debate at all. It doesn't matter ishoos, if you are 'convinced'. It is a fact

HermioneWeasley · 24/11/2015 16:10

But trans women ARE a subset of men, with male biology.

They might be feminine (gender) but they are still male.

bigbuttons · 24/11/2015 16:17

Hooray for common sense on most of this ridiculous thread.
Transwomen will always be men. They might identify as women but they will always be men.

isshoes · 24/11/2015 16:18

Shortcut OK. If you are that close-minded that you can't accept that your own view on this matter is just that - a view - then we have no basis on which to continue this debate (note that if we disagree on the facts, then it is an argument. That is a fact).

Hermione OK to you too. They ARE men/they AREN'T men. It's boring now.

abbieanders · 24/11/2015 16:21

How can a transwoman ever expect to be accepted as a woman if she is repeatedly forced to use male facilities?

Well, is there any reason why women should care?

jorahmormont · 24/11/2015 16:22

Yes but isshoes it's a ridiculous argument. It's like you're trying to argue that the world is flat when everyone else is telling you that it's round. We know for a fact that it is round. You're arguing, but that doesn't make it a valid argument.

isshoes · 24/11/2015 16:28

abbie only compassionate ones.

jorah have a look at this article. It is a valid argument. Your view is not the only view. Nor is mine. You do not have the final say on what is fact just because you can't accept that other views exist.

ShortcutButton · 24/11/2015 16:34

ishoos having copassion to the extent that your own rights and boundaries are eroded is alled being abused

it is eatly how abusie en in relationships ontrol woen

abbieanders · 24/11/2015 16:44

abbieonly compassionate ones.

So in essence, women should apply female socialisation to soothe the feelings of people without female socialisation, the same people who claim female socialisation by demanding that their needs are attended to, almost the opposite of female socialisation.

Mammy.

TheXxed · 24/11/2015 16:50

ishooes I don't think you understand the words you are using.

MythicalKings · 24/11/2015 16:50

Where is the compassion from transwomen for women who feel threatened and uncomfortable by their insistence on being allowed into women only spaces?

isshoes · 24/11/2015 16:51

abbie you have lost me with the end of your sentence.

Anyway, why shouldn't everyone have the right for their needs to be met? Of course in life that is never going to happen, but what makes one group more deserving than another? You don't need to actually answer that question because there is no answer. Nothing gives you more right than any other 'innocent' human being to health, happiness and wellbeing.

SlaggyIsland · 24/11/2015 16:54

But what transwomen are asking is for their rights to be met at the expense of women.
And that is bullshit.

Dragonsdaughter · 24/11/2015 17:00

Nothing gives you more rights. You have answered this yourself is shoes. Being trans does not give more rights than being a woman. We are not going to make room on the bench. We fought for the bench and its ours. Trans can get their own bench and make out pink and sparkly if they like or put it in dungarees as its their bench. But don't try and tell women what to do with our bench OK ?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 24/11/2015 17:01

Anyway, why shouldn't everyone have the right for their needs to be met? Of course in life that is never going to happen, but what makes one group more deserving than another? You don't need to actually answer that question because there is no answer. Nothing gives you more right than any other 'innocent' human being to health, happiness and wellbeing.

Exactly! I completely agree, trans-women have a right to have their needs met, but they are not more deserving than other groups. Trans-women need their own spaces and their own services, separate from both male and female spaces.

ShortcutButton · 24/11/2015 17:15

I wish TW well. I hope they live full happy lives with the same opportun8ties as anyone else

I don't want to validate them as women, though. Because they aren't women

There issues are different. And I am uninterested in them

ShortcutButton · 24/11/2015 17:17

Oh, what dragons says, exactly

MaidOfStars · 24/11/2015 17:20

Anyway, why shouldn't everyone have the right for their needs to be met? Of course in life that is never going to happen, but what makes one group more deserving than another?

facepalm