to think Mumsnet should delete posts in which women are called cis

[violetsarentblue]

I (and I imagine quite a lot of women on here) are fed up with being referred to as cis. I find the term deeply insulting.
I'm a woman and prefer to be addressed as a 'woman', not a cis woman.

I noticed MN are quick to delete posts where transgender people are called 'he' instead of 'she', because that group of people find the term insulting and MN don't want to offend.

Generally we delete posts in which people persistently refuse to refer to people by the pronoun (he/she; him/her) by which they’ve asked to be referred, out of respect for that individual’s wishes.

Please - could we have the same depth of consideration for our wishes?

Thank you.

Here is why letting anyone on any given day decide to say they identify as a woman and therefore have all women's rights at their disposal, isn't a good idea.

gendertrender.wordpress.com/2012/10/07/olympia-wa-school-officials-state-gender-identity-provision-overrides-title-ix-equality-for-girls-swim-teams/

This is how they describe themselves:

“I am polyamorous, bisexual (I very much favor women though, and my therapist calls me a lesbian…makes me smile) and kinky.”

“Colleen Brenna” means “Raven Girl” in Irish Gaelic. A former rodeo rider, he is an avid hunter and competitive handgun shooter.

He started wearing a low-dose estrogen patch two years ago and has written that he has no intention of ever getting “sex reassignment” surgery, stating “Yes, I still have those parts too, although they aren’t disgusting for me. I’ve never hated then. I saw LONG ago, in childhood that those were what I was given, and beung the very, very sexual creature that I was/am, I used them. Enthusiastically. I decided not to be robbed of the blessing of sexuality simply because I came wrapped in the wrong package.”

If we separate trans-women into their own group then we are refusing to accept that they have changed gender. We are also effectively excluding them from society, because the small size of the community means that they are thinly spread across the world. According to the Gender Identity Research and Education Society, about 1% of the UK's population are 'gender nonconforming to some degree'. So let's say that's about 1 person on the 'gender non conforming' bench, around 50 on the 'women's bench' and 49 on the 'men's bench'. And who knows how many of that 1% are actually trans-women?

Dragons - if your post is reflective of your general attitude, I wouldn't want to share your bench, regardless of our apparently shared genetic sex. Your message is very mean-spirited.

The fact that women are females, that is adult humans with female reproductive systems is not a view. It is a fact.

If a transwoman went to a doctor because they weren't getting pregnant despite having regular intercourse with a male partner the doctor would not have a hard time figuring out why. It wouldn't be a view or an opinion to say that the issue would be that the transwoman does not have the necessary reproductive system. It would be a fact.

Transwomen are not female is a fact. And there is nothing progressive about denying that fact. Quite the opposite. The opinion that transwomen are female is deeply conservative and reactionary.

I still don't understand why this is reduced to an argument about biology. Sex is also a legal category, for example. If a person is legally female, I don't really see what having any kind of reproductive system has to do with how I relate to her (after all, I never check what kind of reproductive system, if any, my acquaintances have). I really think biology is the biggest red herring in this debate.

So yes, lots of trans women are female. It's just a fact.

isshoes how would you like to see women react to trans women what changes is it that you feel should be made

I keep hearing we have to accept them and that no one has the ownership over the word woman

but what exactly needs to change if we are to accept trans women as women

If we separate trans-women into their own group then we are refusing to accept that they have changed gender.

No, we are refusing to accept that they have changed sex. And yes they are a minority but so are other people with various health issues and there are plenty of issue specific health groups.

Isshoes why can't society consider transwomen to be males who present themselves in a feminine way? There is no need for exclusion. Currently there seems to be a real push for excluding transwomen from their actual biological sex group (male). IMO this is due to homophobia, misogyny and reactionary views about sex roles, sex stereotypes and masculinity.

Society rejects transwomen from the group male, this makes them nonmale. Nonmale does not equal female however and it is very misogynistic to define women as "nonmales".

Ghastly notion and nowt liberal about it.

I don't get how a trans woman can say they feel like a woman when they are male and have no idea what being a woman feels like.
They might feel more comfortable acting as if they are women, but they will only ever be acting as if.
No amount of coercion and chest beating is going to change that.

Isshoes, can you clarify how we're defining "gender non conforming"? Because I think plenty of non trans people would say that they are, but wouldn't label themselves as "gender fluid" or "gender queer" because they aren't the specialest of all the special snowflakes

I agree, there's more to being a woman than being a non-male.

Their experience is valid and should be more heard but it isn't an experience that women (born women) can really identify with. Why are we all tripping ourselves up in knots over that simple fact.

isshoes Any comments on the real life changing room situation linked to above? Do you think it's acceptable? Desirable even? Are the young girls being precious?

I doubt it. I don't believe you think it's acceptable, but you refuse to acknowledge that because you feel it irreparably damaged your argument. I don't believe it does. It would be genuinely interesting to hear your (genuine) thoughts...

That to me is key, buttons. They can't know they feel like a woman. They may feel more like what they think a woman feels like than they feel like a man, but that is in no way the same. Why are there only two ways to feel?

fascicle

I'd say the problem is more a failure, or refusal, by some to acknowledge transwomen as anything other than male. If transwomen can't be female because they were born male, and can't acquire a gender that is considered an artificial patriarchal construct, then what options does that leave them?

I mentioned upthread that I am a man who is often mistaken for being female. So I do sympathise with transwomen because I think I have probably undergone similar things to them. However, I have no desire to become one myself.

This is because I think the healthier option is to come to terms with one's own biological sex, like I did, and find a way of living with it. One's biological sex is a fact that cannot be changed. I agree with the many reasons given by others on this thread as to why it cannot be changed, and the significance of this. If we know ourselves, know our strengths and weaknesses, history and our bodies and what they do, we can make better decisions as to how we live our lives. By contrast, if we deny things that are innate in ourselves, we make a mess of ourselves and find it harder to live happily. A man who thinks he is a woman is engaging in denial of himself. While I may understand why he does this, I think he is making a mistake. I also do not at all like the very prevalent idea that such things are a purely private decision for each individual. This cannot be the case with any recognised class or group of people recognised by society has having a status and certain rights and obligations.

Transwomen want society to change to recognise their belief that they are female. I think they want society to take wrong turn. The alternative is to jettison the the concept of gender entirely, and allow people to be who they want to be as men or women. "Gender dysphoria" would disappear at a stroke because there would be no gender to be dysphoric about. Why should it matter if a man wants to wear a dress? It really shouldn't. It is precisely the concept of gender that makes this matter.

We all ought to be a lot more tolerant of how men and women choose to organise their own lives, and should not be saying that a man or boy is "not male" or a woman or girl is "not female". Transgenderism seems to offer a counsel of despair: apparently this is not possible, so therefore people ought to have the right to opt into a gender role they prefer. It tries to replace biological fact with individual inclinations. Its dishonest.

AdjustableWrench, so what you're saying is that lots of males are female. And this is apparently a fact.
Do you have any evidence to support this fact, other than people announcing that they feel like women?

SmashingTurnips this point has been addressed. No one is disputing biology. What is in dispute is what is meant by 'sex' - which some are using as a synonym for chromosomal sex (not me) and what it means to be a 'woman'.

Adjustable

Enthusiasm that's a good question. I only came on this thread originally to dispute the claim that 'cis' was a deeply insulting term. I have been really taken aback by some of the subsequent transphobic and simply mean-spirited posts that have followed, and so have somehow found myself in the role of (according to some) 'transactivist'.

What I would like to see is more compassion, tolerance, and frankly the respect to accept that some people are not actually the gender they were assigned at birth. Tbh I hadn't realised quite how far behind we are - or at least how far behind we are if this forum is representative of the gen pop, which hopefully it isn't. Not accepting transwomen as women is probably the most fundamental problem. Until you acknowledge and accept that it is possible to change gender, you are never going to accept the associated rights that should come with that.

Not accepting transwomen as women is probably the most fundamental problem. Until you acknowledge and accept that it is possible to change gender, you are never going to accept the associated rights that should come with that.

A women is a biological fact, nothing to do.with the societal judgement that is gender.

I am officially agender.

I'm a woman because of my reproductive system (not that I've ever had any intention of using it).

That's it.

What I would like to see is more compassion, tolerance, and frankly the respect to accept that some people are not actually the gender they were assigned at birth

Sure. But you think that should come at the expense of compassion, tolerance and respect of women.

Any thoughts on the changing room story linked above?

*isshoes Any comments on the real life changing room situation linked to above? Do you think it's acceptable? Desirable even? Are the young girls being precious?

I doubt it. I don't believe you think it's acceptable, but you refuse to acknowledge that because you feel it irreparably damaged your argument. I don't believe it does. It would be genuinely interesting to hear your (genuine) thoughts...*

Ok here are my genuine thoughts. This is a person who currently identifies as a woman, but who appears to be rather fluid in gender identity, and who has no desire to change her physical appearance, and so externally she still looks male.

I think that the issue here is not just for little girls - there is an undertone in the article suggesting that she is a risk to minors, but I see no evidence to that effect.

However, given the fact that this is someone who is maintaining a physical male appearance, it would be more appropriate, in my view, to ask her to change in the small locker room (I think that there was some reference to there being another small place where the girls were asked to change?) and for the girls to change in the main female changing rooms. I do understand that if there are physical differences in appearances, it is not always appropriate to have shared open-plan changing facilities.

Your suggestion that this article 'irreparably damaged my argument' is ridiculous...

Venus - that was a term used by GIRES, who explain the term as follows:

It is now understood that gender identity, although powerfully influenced by the sex of the genitalia and the gender of rearing, is not determined by these factors. There is evidence that sex differentiation of the brain is inconsistent with other sex characteristics, resulting in individuals having a predisposition to develop a gender identity that is not typically associated with the assigned sex. They may dress and/or behave in ways that are perceived by others as being outside typical cultural gender expressions; these gender expressions may be described as gender variance or gender nonconformity.

ishoes So you are not accepting them as a woman then?

That's not what I said Its. I can accept someone as a woman but acknowledge that their physical appearance is that of a male.

Feels like banging my head a wall to be honest.

Your suggestion that this article 'irreparably damaged my argument' is ridiculous...
I curse auto correct. I intended to use the present tense 'damages' and it was in reference to your refusal to comment on real life extrapolations of your argument, not the article specifically.