to think Mumsnet should delete posts in which women are called cis

[violetsarentblue]

I (and I imagine quite a lot of women on here) are fed up with being referred to as cis. I find the term deeply insulting.
I'm a woman and prefer to be addressed as a 'woman', not a cis woman.

I noticed MN are quick to delete posts where transgender people are called 'he' instead of 'she', because that group of people find the term insulting and MN don't want to offend.

Generally we delete posts in which people persistently refuse to refer to people by the pronoun (he/she; him/her) by which they’ve asked to be referred, out of respect for that individual’s wishes.

Please - could we have the same depth of consideration for our wishes?

Thank you.

An example would be fa'afafine in Polynesia.

Fa'afafine is a gender role (and we assume a gender identity as it is felt internally) in Samoan culture. But in order to choose the gender role fa'afafine, you have to be male.

It is a subgroup of males. There is no conflation with biological sex.

I agree there are people who think, or want to think, gender identity is straightforward, but I don't think they are the women who object to being called cis.

"re the "born in the wrong body" stance - if conditions in the womb are affecting brain chem, that is affecting the 'gender' after the body exists - ergo, the body has the 'wrong' gender. For it to be the wrong body, it must exist pre-sperm, swim?"

You are right - "born in the wrong body" makes no sense.

What is possibly happening here (at least in the case of the boys born to mothers exposed to estrogenic drugs during pregnancy) is that the brain is malfunctioning in its expectations of the body.

I understand that other people have gender identities. Just as I understand that other people have religious identities.

But I don't. When I say I am a woman I am simply describing my bio sex. If you maintain that is a gender identity you are misgendering me.

I'm not maintaining anything about you, and nor would I. As I said upthread, I also don't consider myself to be a woman in anything other than a biological sense; I don't have any sense of my brain/mind/soul as being inherently female. (I do think 'misgendering' would be a kind of odd word to use for that since I've never heard it used in that sense before, but I can't think of a better term, so fair enough.)

53rd, I'm just using myself as an example!

If you think that when people say they are women, they mean that their gender identity is they are women, you are misunderstanding them and so will misgender them.

Many people, when saying they are a woman are just reporting they are an adult and their sex is female.

Many people, when saying they are a woman are just reporting they are an adult and their sex is female.

Well, yes. Like I said, that's all I'm doing when I say I'm a woman. So this is not exactly news to me?

Again, not sure what you mean. Misgendering someone is when you say someone has a gender identity that they do not have.

If you say a self identified trans woman is gender queer, you have misgendered her.

If you say a self identified genderqueer person is a trans man, you have misgendered them.

If you say a self identified cis woman is non binary, you have misgendered her.

If you say a woman who has no gender identity is cis or any other gender identity, you are misgendering her.

53rdAndBird do you support trans women entering the Miss World contest?

Do you believe gender is important?

do you support trans women entering the Miss World contest?

I have absolutely zero opinions on eligibility criteria for the Miss World contest. Rhinos can enter it for all I care.

Do you believe gender is important?

It is to some people, clearly.

Haha, im with you with miss world!

How about the MMA example i gave earlier (was that this thread?)?

When I was born, a midwife looked at my external genitals and declared me a girl! Lovely?

How unfortunate was I? It meant I would get periods, forever be prodded because of "women's problems", have the unfortunate status in life of being the sex who heterosexual men would lust after. Loose out in the top job status because of having children.

But you didn't answer my question if you think gender is important.

How disappointing.

Rhinos? I was hoping you would say mermaids!

Bloody hell.. What on earth does CIS stand for? Ive done 4 pages of this thread and still dont know. Ive done links etc and still dont know.

CIS doesnt stand for anything, its a word - cis (pronounced siss)

Examples - cisgender and umm, thats it

How about the MMA example i gave earlier (was that this thread?)?

I know close to zero about MMA, so can't exactly speak from any position of informed authority, but yeah, sports in general seems like an area where biological sex is directly relevant (at least, in some sports - I can't see how it would matter in something like chess). I don't know exactly how artificial hormone treatments affect those biological limitations, though.

*But you didn't answer my question if you think gender is important.

How disappointing.*

What kind of answer did you want? I said it was important to some people; it isn't important to others. Do you want to know if it's important to me personally in my life? As I've said several times now, it isn't an important part of how I see myself.

Transgender for me is being accepted for having your cake and eating it. Good luck to you but don't expect me to fall into what you want when you want to sway it.

I dont really care, I welcome all with willies, without etc.

Just dont expect me to cowtow to your wishes and tell ME im wrong.

If intersex isn't a gender identity then being binary sex is also not a gender identity.

Nobody is born with a gender identity.

I would say no-one has a gender identity. They might identify themselves as preferring sex stereotyped concepts of masculinity or femininity but that is not a biological nor an innate state of being.

what does lgbt mean?

Now I don't know what Cis means and lgbt either.

Anything can be used as an insult in the manner its being said, so I dont really get it.

Bruce Genner seems to want to be one when it suits and another when it doesnt.

Which is fine but don't expect me to go along with it.

Jenner*

I have all the sympathy in the world for someone that shows they were born in the wrong body, it happens.

I have no sympathy at all with someone that swaps this to suit themselves.

See now here's the thing. If you don't think gender is important, then why would you acknowledge that it is important for others?

It's not logical. Neither is it empathetic. Either gender is important or it isn't.

You cannot have it both ways. Just as no human on this planet can change their sex - they can change their gender identity. Who cares about the change of gender identity? Well, many would because in changing gender identity the person doing so may well over conform to the societal norms in appearance. Personally, I think CJ talks still like a man. But that's just because I've been brought up in thinking that an adult human with a deep voice is male. It's difficult to overcome this aural tradition.

Elendon, I'm an atheist but acknowledge faith is important for others. It's not either/or.