to think Mumsnet should delete posts in which women are called cis

[violetsarentblue]

I (and I imagine quite a lot of women on here) are fed up with being referred to as cis. I find the term deeply insulting.
I'm a woman and prefer to be addressed as a 'woman', not a cis woman.

I noticed MN are quick to delete posts where transgender people are called 'he' instead of 'she', because that group of people find the term insulting and MN don't want to offend.

Generally we delete posts in which people persistently refuse to refer to people by the pronoun (he/she; him/her) by which they’ve asked to be referred, out of respect for that individual’s wishes.

Please - could we have the same depth of consideration for our wishes?

Thank you.

Individuals are the best experts in what gender they are. That is the end of the matter as far as I'm aware. Transgender people hardly get an easy ride in society right now, so I think it's safe to assume that if people express they are transgender, it isn't just for shits and giggles.

People are not a gender, they are a sex and sex is a biological category independent of what people feel about their sex. Whatever reason they may have for wishing to be the other sex does not make it so.

People can't be born in the wrong body, they can only be born in their body. People can however be born in the wrong society if society says a person with their body should have a certain type of personality.

I can get on board with the idea of feeling like something you're not. I feel - in my head - as if I'm 25. Sadly, society refuses to accepts this and insists on treating me as if I'm 50. I'm excluded from a whole bunch of activities that are open only to people under the age of 30.

Awesome post Lozza thanx a mil!!!

yes hackmum, i am shocked every time i look in a mirror, who is this middle aged lady, where is me?

I don't know what you mean by a 'body based definition of gender.'

Okay. Trying once again:

There are some people who think that gender identity is (or should be) fairly straightforward. If you have a female body, you are female; if you have a male body, you are male. In this way of thinking, it makes no sense to say "I'm a woman" if you are XY and have a penis and testicles, because "being a woman" means "being biologically female."

And there are also some people who think that the entire trans movement is recent, something that's only happened within the past 10 years, a backlash against feminism, whatever.

I am saying that this seems to be an oversimplification, because:

a) bodies are not divided neatly into 'female bodies' and 'male bodies'. For example: some bodies look female but have male chromosomes, due to conditions like AIS. Is that a 'male body' or a 'female body'?

b) throughout history, in all sorts of different societies at all sorts of different times, there have been people who identified as a gender other than the one they were born as.

Going back a couple of pages, but BeyondThirty there is gay marriage in Ireland. It was passed by popular referendum last year, and the first marriages took place this week. Prior to this there were civil partnerships.

bodies are not divided neatly into 'female bodies' and 'male bodies'. For example: some bodies look female but have male chromosomes, due to conditions like AIS. Is that a 'male body' or a 'female body'?

As far as I know, such cases are so rare as to be statistically insignificant.

As far as I know, such cases are so rare as to be statistically insignificant.

In that case, surely people who are going round insisting we all call ourselves 'cis' are so rare as to be statistically insignificant too. Fuss over, let's all go home!

I have no idea if there have been people with gender dysphoria throughout history; there may well have been (I think GD is more accurate here than trans as trans implies at least some active steps to transition). Some people lived as the opposite sex to eg access careers only open to the other; that's documented.

Are you arguing that all people with gender dysphoria have a form of hormonal disorder, with your reference to AIS?

"And there are also some people who think that the entire trans movement is recent, something that's only happened within the past 10 years, "

The movement is recent; GD may not be.

There's an area in the Dominican Republic where 1 in 90 boys don't grow a penis until they are 12. Until then they look like girls.

They may be statistically significant, but they are doing a good job of dominating public discourse, particularly online, and silencing women who dissent from the trans orthodoxy. And handing out death threats and vile abuse, like that detailed to a 17 year old girl up thread. And getting laws changed which entirely redefine the nature of womanhood, as in Ireland.

being a woman is different (I think) to being biologically female though.

The first is more an expression of gender identity that an individual may choose to identify with (regardless of biology), choose to reject as applicable to them or choose to reject as a concept.

The second is a description of biology.

there have been people who identified as a gender other than the one they were born as

Nobody is born with a gender identity.

I always wondered about the born/trapped in the wrong body, it's genuinely confuses me.

Because it sounds like a belief that our souls/self exist before conception? If that's not the case then at what point does the self enter the body? A few months in the womb? At birth?

I thought that we develop as we grow up, with environment,socialisation etc influencing us?

I'm not asking that to stir shit, I genuinely don't get it.

Are you arguing that all people with gender dysphoria have a form of hormonal disorder, with your reference to AIS?

No.

I have no idea why some people feel that their gender does not match their biological sex. Maybe it is hormonal, or neurological, or something like that. Maybe it is entirely to do with the way we fit expectations and stereotypes around gender. No idea.

I can accept, though, that some people genuinely do feel that their gender does not match their biological sex. I can believe these people are telling the truth about their own minds and their own experiences of their own bodies, and not accuse them of being out to bring down feminism or whatever else.

1.I don't think that people are claiming that intersex people do not exist or that everyone has either a male body or a female body. Intersex organisations have guidance on the treatment of intersex adults and children.

1. People are not arguing that gender identity is straightforward. They are saying that stating your sex is not a gender identity.

1. In all cultures, gender roles exist. In most cultures, more than one gender role exists for each sex. So for example, in some cultures being a mother is considered to be a different gender role to being a female without children. In other cultures, males may choose to take one of a range of different gender roles which are based on their sexual orientation. In other cultures, youngest sons are assigned a different gender role to older sons. We can look at examples from India or Polynesia.

What these are not saying is that people do not have a biological sex, or that stating your biological sex is a gender identity.

"In that case, surely people who are going round insisting we all call ourselves 'cis' are so rare as to be statistically insignificant too."

They are, actually.

The problem is that they are being listened to. Women who outnumber them by 99.7% to 0.3% are not even being consulted, let alone listened to and heard.

Now why could that be?

I give up, Almond. What is it that you think I'm arguing? Because if what you're telling me is that gender identity is a complex, culturally-varied thing that does not map neatly onto biological sex, then... we aren't even in disagreement.

Also, a sperm with a y chromosome has one from its creation. For a child to be "born in the wrong body", when does the gender identity arrive? It would have to be before the formation of the sperm to be considered "in the wrong body" as opposed to "with the wrong GI"? So in that case, does scientific knowledge have proof that the gender identity comes from within the ovum? If a babies gender identity is already there when the egg is created, is it therefore alive? Where does abortion fit into this, then?

How is it easier to have answers for (and beliefs re) all of this, than to think an actual quantifiable GI is not innate?

"being a woman is different (I think) to being biologically female though. The first is more an expression of gender identity that an individual may choose to identify with (regardless of biology), choose to reject as applicable to them or choose to reject as a concept."

That is what transactivists are pushing, yes.

Except that the word "woman" means adult human female in any dictionary - i.e. you can't actually be a woman without being female first. And as you say, "female" is a biological definition meaning of the sex that can make eggs/ova and bear young.

Transwomen feel like women and identify as women, which is all well and good. Whatever makes them happy. They can identify as aliens from Alpha Centauri or the Queen of Sheba if that is how they want to be known.

However, all this feeling like and identifying as is not the same thing as being. It isn't in any other context, and it isn't in this one. They are not female and therefore cannot be women, regardless of how they modify their bodies to look feminine.

53rd, because those are gender roles that are applied to people with a specific biological sex.

An Indian woman can't decide she is a Hirja. A Hirja is one of the gender roles available to biological males. The same for women in Polynesia. There are more than two gender roles in Polynesia, but that doesn't mean a Polynesian woman can claim to be a man within her society.

When I say I am a woman. I am not claiming to have any particular gender identity.

I understand that other people have gender identities. Just as I understand that other people have religious identities.

But I don't. When I say I am a woman I am simply describing my bio sex. If you maintain that is a gender identity you are misgendering me.

Beyond - Actually, there is some evidence that there is a biological basis for trans feelings.

1/3 of male babies born to women exposed to an estrogenic drug during pregnancy turned out to be transgender women vs 0.3% occurrence in general population, as shown in this study.

It is not surprising, though. There is a biological basis in the brain for many conditions where perception of self is distorted, such as schizophrenia and anorexia.

Sorry if I wasn't clear, Cote. I agree with everything in your response to me.

I know you do, Maid. I just jumped on the chance to bang my drum again

Yeah, i saw that - sorry, that wasnt my point (i am not the best at making clear points!)

I meant re the "born in the wrong body" stance - if conditions in the womb are affecting brain chem, that is affecting the 'gender' after the body exists - ergo, the body has the 'wrong' gender.
For it to be the wrong body, it must exist pre-sperm, yswim?