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to think Mumsnet should delete posts in which women are called cis

999 replies

violetsarentblue · 17/11/2015 22:21

I (and I imagine quite a lot of women on here) are fed up with being referred to as cis. I find the term deeply insulting.
I'm a woman and prefer to be addressed as a 'woman', not a cis woman.

I noticed MN are quick to delete posts where transgender people are called 'he' instead of 'she', because that group of people find the term insulting and MN don't want to offend.

Generally we delete posts in which people persistently refuse to refer to people by the pronoun (he/she; him/her) by which they’ve asked to be referred, out of respect for that individual’s wishes.

Please - could we have the same depth of consideration for our wishes?

Thank you.

OP posts:
EmpressKnowsWhereHerTowelIs · 19/11/2015 19:21

LGBT is an umbrella term for lesbian-gay-bi-trans community.

It is also increasingly a load of crap. Lesbians have fuck all in common with transactivists.
Organisations like Stonewall are increasingly being dominated by trans rights to the extent that lesbians are being dubbed vagina fetishists for not being interested in "lady dick".

There was a thread in the last couple of days about an MNer's teenage lesbian daughter, sounded like a really lovely girl, who'd had abuse and death threats on Twitter because she dared to question TWs who were having a go at women.

It may not come as a surprise after that that a growing number of Ls want to split off from the Ts.

pinotblush · 19/11/2015 19:24

Ls, Ts now

Is this some sort of secret code?

I don't get it.

People want acceptance but use code words to express themselves.

Strange.

almondpudding · 19/11/2015 19:25

I agree with OMC.

I don't have a gender indentity or religion, but I accept they are important experiences for other people.

As long as I'm not forced into activities or categories set up by genderists or religious believers, their beliefs and practices are their business.

Rainbunny · 19/11/2015 19:26

Well cis could be argued to be a neutral identifier but in reality I have never seen it used in a neutral or positive way. I have seen it used as a pejorative term to describe a group that is perceived to be unfairly advantaged in society. Saying I am a straight woman feels neutral, saying I am a cis women sounds like I am unfairly privileged. The way in which a term is used influences the meaning of the term ultimately. Take the term "feminist" for example, to my extreme sadness women in younger generations often find this word to be negative and distance themselves from it as its meaning has been successfully hijacked by people (certain men) to paint feminists as men-haters who get special treatment.

EmpressKnowsWhereHerTowelIs · 19/11/2015 19:26

Sorry Pinot - as explained in the first sentence of my post, L is lesbian, T is trans. Lesbians are sexually oriented towards women. We are NOTHING to do with the trans movement, we just get inconveniently lumped in with them sometimes.

53rdAndBird · 19/11/2015 19:28

See now here's the thing. If you don't think gender is important, then why would you acknowledge that it is important for others

There are tons of things that are not important to me but are important to other people, and vice versa. Religion? Important to some people, not to others. Performance of the England rugby team? Important to some people, not to others. How is that 'having it both ways'?

pinotblush · 19/11/2015 19:30

I'd think if acceptance is all about wanting it from the normal joe blogs as in me then speaking in non dialect would help.

You dont want to be set aside yet the way you talk in gibberish does just that.

CountTessa · 19/11/2015 19:32

I find it deeply offensive. To me the term cis is strongly associated with apartheid and segregation of the different cultures there.

It really isn't as if we need further segregation as women when we still don't have equal pay etc etc.

pinotblush · 19/11/2015 19:33

Twilight zone Grin

Elendon · 19/11/2015 19:35

OneMore: With all due respect, using religion is not a good analogy. How many religions do you think there are? I'm a cat owner but acknowledge that other people are entitled to have other kinds of pets. Such as goldfish.

Elendon · 19/11/2015 19:40

So gender is the same as religion?

I don't like Christianity, even though I was brought up a Christian, Communion and Confirmed. However, I didn't realise my dislike until I was about 12, got sense!. I wasn't born a Christian (Catholic), it was imposed on me.

Elendon · 19/11/2015 19:48

Just like all religions are imposed, so is gender.

But there are only two genders, applicable world wide. Personally, I don't give a shiny what gender anyone has. Just don't think it means you were born as the sex you want to mimic by changing gender. Or that brains are different - because brain difference leads us down a racist, cultural, sexist rabbit hole.

Religions are different and diverse, as is the attending culture.

Gender is binary.

hiddenhome2 · 19/11/2015 19:55

I wonder if transwomen consider themselves to be superior to born females. What's all this transactivism and hostility towards women about?

53rdAndBird · 19/11/2015 19:57

People aren't saying gender is the same as religion, Elendon. People are using religion as an example of something that is important to some people and irrelevant to others. Like gender is important to some people and irrelevant to others.

mathanxiety · 19/11/2015 19:58

I think the religion comments are a tangent that perhaps need their own thread.

There are two sexes, with very few exceptions, and sex is a matter of biology.

Gender is something made up and certainly the negative associations applied to femininity are imposed and are invented to serve the purposes of the oppressor class. This is what really galls feminists about the T movement (or it should gall feminists, but sadly some are intent on playing nice to the menz when it comes to the T issue) -- transpeople seek to enshrine the concept of gender in stone, as if it has relevance or application and deserves formal acknowledgement. Organised feminism has spent over a hundred years trying to erase the concept of gender and the negativity associated with femininity, and before that there were many voices crying in the wilderness for the cause of equality, often publishing books and pamphlets with great difficulty, such was the hostility towards them and towards their message.

Lo, onto the scene arrive transpeople telling us gender is real because they feel it is real, and we must all forget about liberation, acknowledge our 'privilege', call ourselves something they tell us to, and focus on their history of victimhood instead of concerns that matter to people with uteruses -- healthcare equality and cost, equal pay, access to education, career expectations when combined with bearing babies, the threat of rape.

limitedperiodonly · 19/11/2015 20:03

I have all the sympathy in the world for someone that shows they were born in the wrong body, it happens.

I don't believe it does happen.

But I believe that lots of people have difficulty with reconciling their sex and sexuality with the gender that society imposes upon them.

That's why, as a woman, I strongly object to being called cis.

Rainbunny · 19/11/2015 20:06

hiddenhome - misogyny is still alive and well across the gender/sex spectrum.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/nov/06/misogyny-gay-men-sexist-rose-mcgowan-rights-women

Sad but not surprising to me.

mathanxiety · 19/11/2015 20:29

"3. In all cultures, gender roles exist. In most cultures, more than one gender role exists for each sex. So for example, in some cultures being a mother is considered to be a different gender role to being a female without children. In other cultures, males may choose to take one of a range of different gender roles which are based on their sexual orientation. In other cultures, youngest sons are assigned a different gender role to older sons. We can look at examples from India or Polynesia."
(Almondpudding).

These are not gender roles, Almondpudding. They are roles associated with different functions in society, associated with hierarchy or property or the ritualistic needs of various societies. It really doesn't matter what obscure societies think of gender or what roles are assigned or chosen by individuals functioning in those societies and cultures. Here is a quote from none other than Stevie Nicks, on gender:
"When you grow up as a girl, the world tells you the things that you are supposed to be: emotional, loving, beautiful, wanted. And then when you are those things, the world tells you they are inferior: illogical, weak, vain, empty." This is how gender works in the west.

Gender roles are inextricably linked to biology in our society. The physical role associated with motherhood is different from the gendered position of mothers. There is conception, gestation, birth and lactation involved in the physical sense. Parenting is a role both men and women can do, and even women and men who have never physically borne a baby can perform it and perform it well. However, there is a gendered expectation that a woman will parent, will sacrifice a career and opportunity to earn an income in favour of parenting and will never again make the same money or have the same opportunity for promotion once the physical role has been performed. This is pure advantage taking on the part of a class seeking to keep money and power in its own hands. Gender in the west has very significant political overtones therefore.

Being expected to wear a skirt and keep your legs together when sitting in school is a gender role. Being expected to make coffee for meetings is a secretarial role. Being expected to look thin and professional, made up and coiffed and alert and smart, and yet to contribute in a meeting in a non-confrontational way is a role associated with gender when a women is an executive or a lawyer or engineer, or whatever. Women in those positions can't sprawl all over their chairs, sit with their arms raised and hands clasped behind their heads while speaking at meetings, scratch themselves, etc. Additionally, and very importantly, the men are taking home more in their paycheques than the women are. This is all gender.

mathanxiety · 19/11/2015 20:30

'They are roles associated with different functions in society, associated with hierarchy or property or the ritualistic needs of various societies and they are roles freely chosen.'

toomuchtooold · 19/11/2015 20:39

53rd

And there are also some people who think that the entire trans movement is recent, something that's only happened within the past 10 years, a backlash against feminism, whatever.

Did you mean me? I said
why should we have to move out of the feminist house, why do we need to surrender the name and the movement to a bunch of people who joined it in the last 10 years when it's been going for the last 100

I don't think transpeople appeared 10 years ago (hell, it's 15 years since I was part of the campaign to include transsexual and transgender people in the remit of my university's LGB society) but the co-opting of the feminist movement, comments on e.g. twitter that saying reproductive issues are women's issues = transphobia - yeah, that all feels fairly new.

53rdAndBird · 19/11/2015 21:04

I was thinking more the "what is all this 'trans' stuff, we never had this in my day!" kind of argument, although maybe I skimmed and misread you in particular on that, so apologies if so.

To be clear, I don't agree with anyone, trans or not, saying that reproductive rights being women's issues are transphobic. But the conflation of trans people and trans rights in general with anti-feminism that has turned up again and again in this discussion seems massively misrepresentative of reality.

Most of the trans people I've known have spent their days getting on with their lives, and when they talk about trans rights it's in the context of wanting to be allowed to get on with their lives, not demanding that I or other women called ourselves 'cis'. Sure, there are people who are bullying and obnoxious about it - but they are not most people, and I do not like the idea of throwing a large group of people and their very real concerns and issues under the bus because of a small number of brats on Twitter/Tumblr/wherever.

almondpudding · 19/11/2015 21:09

Math anxiety, they are not all freely chosen. Some of those gender roles are given to people and they are not allowed to change group.

Of course they are about hierarchy. Gender is a hierarchy.

Gender roles are linked to biology in every culture.

That is what a gender role is. It is a set of rules about how a particular society expects people of a particular biological sex to behave.

EmpressKnowsWhereHerTowelIs · 19/11/2015 21:57

53rd, yes, all the trans people I know in RL are fine too. Unfortunately it's the obnoxious bullies who are being listened to.

Ireland: anyone can decide they're a woman and get officially recognised as one. UK is thinking about it.

Tara Hudson.

Lila Perry.

The TW who sued the rape centre in Canada for not letting them be a counsellor.

I'd love to be able to ignore them but the problem is, the decision-makers don't.

VestalVirgin · 19/11/2015 22:28

1/3 of male babies born to women exposed to an estrogenic drug during pregnancy turned out to be transgender women vs 0.3% occurrence in general population, as shown in this study.

That's alarming. Considering how many women take the pill and don't expect accidents, therefore will only stop taking it a couple of months into the pregnancy ...

Maybe that's one reason why everything seems to be about transgender nowadays.

VestalVirgin · 19/11/2015 22:36

Ah, the study is not about the pill, but about Diethylstilbestrol. So not as widespread ... but as this was an anti-miscarriage drug ... that explains a lot.

Though it still doesn't explain the abundance of men who are completely happy with their penises but want to be allowed into women's spaces.